Want to shake things up: Doorways, Scouting, Caution

[5ekyu]

Did that in the last adventure; they sent the earth elemental after it.


Yeah, but then it makes me wonder about the point of going to the trouble of placing and learning the treasure at all. Why even have a dungeon if the players are going to go out of their way to do as little of it as they can? It's discouraging for me, and probably not as rewarding for them as a place they'd actually engage with would be.

Again, the lack to me is the absence of z concrete reason they want to interact. If you are relying on "why not pick it up?" you are hanging your results on their paranoia.

If you put forth a playstyle where the things you hope they interact have clear meaning to the characters, you are less hooked. This is especially true if they if they see potential risks in "inaction."

If later on they see the red laced gizmo they avoided in the hands of other guys from the dungeon they also avoided and that produces results they dont like, maybe next time they reconsider.

After the celebration of them defeating the goblin Warren is over, coming back and seeing the ones they avoided with backup used the items and wealth to exact revenge... different story. Remember, beating Grendel is just the first part of the story. The number of minor leaders who got there by bring related to someone with actual power is quite long.

 

[iserith]

When the players are done with the adventure, do they typically have a lot of resources, especially hit points, remaining?

The reason I ask is that I've DMed for and played with a particular kind of player before who is 100% committed to losing no hit points and hoarding resources. Even when it's a one-shot and there's 10 minutes left in the game, they are agonizing over whether to use that high-level spell they have (which they will never have a chance to use again).

Just curious if you're seeing any of this among these players.

 

[jayoungr]

Again, the lack to me is the absence of z concrete reason they want to interact. If you are relying on "why not pick it up?" you are hanging your results on their paranoia.

Well, in this particular adventure, they needed the item because it was one of four things they needed to unlock the door to the final chamber. But it's just one example of a pattern that's driving me a little crazy.

Honestly, I think it's probably too late to train these players not to be ultra-cautious. What I need is tools to overcome that caution in specific situations.

When the players are done with the adventure, do they typically have a lot of resources, especially hit points, remaining?

Yes, they do. That's partly because they're a large group of high-level characters and I'm still trying to learn how to challenge them, though. (I've run a game up to level 20 before, but there were only four PCs in that game, and this one has six.)

 

[Rod Staffwand]

Some good suggestions here, and I would add:

1. Fighting from the Doorway. I don't think anyone mentioned having the monsters appear after the PCs enter the room. You can have hidden monsters, monsters that are out of line of sight, magically summoned monsters, or monsters that are just happen to enter the chamber while the PCs are in it and doing their thing.

I use a lot of monsters that attack and retreat and monsters that like to lurk just outside of attack range or out of sight. The PCs will often know they're there, but have to chase them down or throw something like a fireball at them to get rid of them. Only when the PCs get involved in another combat will they show themselves. Think of them as a tiger or a pack of wolves harrying the party.

Get away from thinking of tiny dungeon cubes with static monsters inside of them waiting around to get killed and everyone will be happier.

2. Scouting. No solo missions ever. Any PC that wants to do a solo scouting mission gets warned against it. If they persist they stumble back a short time later with half their hit points missing and stories of monsters everywhere. My dungeons would very much like to kill you and solo PCs are easy pickings. D&D is a group activity and I won't waste table time catering to one player's whims.

A less drastic measure would be to limit such scouting trips to 5 minutes or less of table time and roll wandering monster checks for both solo PC and the group. Solo PCs will invariably be surprised.

Familiars and other scouting agents are certainly permissible. Familiars can be a bit tricky. They obey your commands, but only up to 100ft away and then they're on their own (DM control! I'd have the familiar keep its head down and take the safest, least informative route possible.). Once again, I'd always roll a wandering monster check for these types of things and require stealth checks and all that to progress. I try to keep expeditions like this to 5 minutes or less. I don't go into elaborate details on any features or monsters. If the player wants more detail we're into investigating--which means taking extra time, incurring extra danger and so on.

3. Caution. Yeah, I hate when D&D players don't want to play D&D. Don't touch anything! Don't explore! Don't experiment! I can understand the mentality, but embracing the danger is one of the best parts of D&D. Worse comes to worse you make a new PC. In my games, risk and reward are linked. You don't get the cool magic sword without jumping into the evil pit. Someone doesn't give you a ring of invisibility because you're "due a magic item". Sure you can avoid open the evil sarcophagus, but that means you won't get the xp from killing the mummy lord inside. The PCs are expected to be dynamic participants--to make good things happen. Those who don't interact with anything will be safer, but missing out.

 

[GMMichael]

1. Fighting from the doorway.Of course it makes a ton of sense tactically, but I've gotten super-bored with every single combat going this way. I'd like to find a way to have any other configuration for the battle: either somehow get the PCs to actually enter the room, or ... I dunno, get the monsters into the hallway somehow?

2. Scouting.The common suggestion to deal with this problem is to have something attack the scout, but I feel like that's a tool that should be used sparingly. Does anyone know any other way to discourage this from happening?

3. Caution. Again, I understand why they do this, but I feel like it leads to a less fun experience for them as well as for me.

Several posters have given you three good solutions. I can do it in three letters: NPC.

Doorway: you might have a habit of thinking of "monsters" as cannon fodder. Mindless. Put an "NPC" in the room with them, see if your thinking changes. (And in case no one mentioned it, an NPC hostage should cut back on the fireball problem.)

Scouting: an NPC might like to follow the scout, thinking he's also a good scout. Use this NPC to foil the scouting attempt (once it has taken too long) or to keep the other PCs occupied trying to hold him back.

Caution: when an NPC claims enough gold for himself without getting harmed, finders-keepers, the PCs might loosen up a bit.

 

[5ekyu]

Well, in this particular adventure, they needed the item because it was one of four things they needed to unlock the door to the final chamber. But it's just one example of a pattern that's driving me a little crazy.

Honestly, I think it's probably too late to train these players not to be ultra-cautious. What I need is tools to overcome that caution in specific situations.


Yes, they do. That's partly because they're a large group of high-level characters and I'm still trying to learn how to challenge them, though. (I've run a game up to level 20 before, but there were only four PCs in that game, and this one has six.)

Well, there is the basic principle - if they still do this - they like it. Your or my thoughts of more fun might not suit thrm.

But for your item, it needs imo to be more than an item they need for the final door. That is insular - circular - a thing in this dungeon related to this dungeon. That still leaves the thoughts at "the dungeon" and really separate from the character. It's another token in the beat the dungeon game.

Make it not about the dungeon but something related to them.

Got a soldier background? This collection of broken standards and trophy or skulls includes ones you served with or under. A search reveals more - not just valuable but personal, things you might want to take back to some others.

 

[Umbran]

2. Scouting. No solo missions ever.

They have skills for a reason. Stealth exists. Don't punish them for using things they spent their build and development on legitimately.

 

[Laurefindel]

For #1, there's always the good old "grapple, pull, and gang-up" on the party's fighter as an encouragement to enter the room and engage the enemy, while deterring fireball clean-up at the same time.

Unlike 3e, it's actually rather straightforward to do in 5e. And unlike AD&D, there are actual rules for doing that.

 

[Tony Vargas]

"grapple, pull and gang-up" on the party fighter … unlike AD&D, there are actual rules for doing that.

There were totally Grappling and Overbearing rules in 1e AD&D!

 

[Laurefindel]

There were totally Grappling and Overbearing rules in 1e AD&D!

I stand corrected then! My DM never used them for sure...

 

[Tony Vargas]

I stand corrected then! My DM never used them for sure...

Yeah, they were hidden in the DMG and pretty terrible.

 

[Hussar]

As for fighting in doorways, move about a third of your encounters into hallways. The guards are changing shift, the critter is coming back from the midden, whatever.

That tends to solve a lot of problems.

 

[jayoungr]

As for fighting in doorways, move about a third of your encounters into hallways. The guards are changing shift, the critter is coming back from the midden, whatever.

That tends to solve a lot of problems.

How so? Forgive me if I sound thick, but a fight in a hallway seems functionally the same as a fight in a doorway. There is still a narrow access point where only a couple of enemies will be able to engage a couple of the PCs, while the other PCs hang back safely and make ranged attacks.

 

[MaximusArael020]

How so? Forgive me if I sound thick, but a fight in a hallway seems functionally the same as a fight in a doorway. There is still a narrow access point where only a couple of enemies will be able to engage a couple of the PCs, while the other PCs hang back safely and make ranged attacks.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but in the case of the corridor fight, wouldn't enemies be getting +2 to +5 to their AC due to the cover provided by the doorway and the intervening party allies? That should make it take a while longer to finish off the enemies, while additional units can come from behind or cast AoE spells or retreat, go for reinforcements, etc.

 

[SkidAce]

... I'd like to find a way to have any other configuration for the battle: either somehow get the PCs to actually enter the room, or ... I dunno, get the monsters into the hallway somehow?

Have the monsters in the hallway, around a corner.

Or half of them outside the room, and then THEY back up and hold the door, while peppering the party with arrows.

 

[Prakriti]

Has anyone suggested non-dungeon-based adventures yet? There are no doors, rooms, or hallways in a swamp. Put your party in open terrain and see how they fare. With really dense fog, their ranged weapons could become pretty much useless.

 

[iserith]

Door Jams. Within five or ten feet of certain distinguishable doorways in this section of the dungeon are pressure plates in the stone floor. When a weight of at least 100 pounds presses down on the pressure plate, a great slab of iron* drops downward from the ceiling with a grating shriek and seals the doorway. The slab remains in place until there is less than 100 pounds of weight upon the pressure plate at which point the slab retracts swiftly into the ceiling.

A pressure plate can be disabled once its inner workings have been deduced given effort, time, and the appropriate tools. A disabled pressure plate will not cause the slab to drop if it is already in the ceiling or will not raise it if it is already blocking the doorway. Failure in the attempt results in the great pressures of the mechanism in the floor and walls to erupt into an explosion of stone and iron. The pressure plate is disabled, but each creature in a 20-foot-radius of the pressure plate must make a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw. A target takes take 4d10 piercing damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. The area becomes difficult terrain.

The numerous denizens of this level of the dungeon have learned to use these doorways both offensively and defensively in their constant struggle over dungeon turf. They say there's a gauntlet of twenty of them at a choke point in the dungeon, a long blood-soaked corridor cast in hellish magical darkness. There in the doorways lurk eight ropers under the thrall of Lord Villainous which have been transmogrified to look like a pile of discolored bricks instead of a cave formation. They also have devil's sight.

* Slabs of iron have AC 19, HP 50, and damage threshold 10. They are immune to poison and psychic and resistant to cold and fire. Trying to bash down a slab of iron is a noisy affair, drawing unwanted attention from all over this level of the dungeon.

 

[Umbran]

How so? Forgive me if I sound thick, but a fight in a hallway seems functionally the same as a fight in a doorway.

A fight in a hallway is like having not just a fight in a doorway, but a fight in which all people from both sides are in a doorway. Nobody gets to hide out of sight. Everyone is crammed in vulnerable to area of attack spells and abilities....

And, yes, if your bad guys don't have those ranged attacks, this won't work. But if they do, the PCS are vulnerable to them

 

[GMMichael]

Has anyone suggested non-dungeon-based adventures yet?

Erm, my suggestion was NPCs, not NDBs.

. . .a narrow access point where only a couple of enemies will be able to engage a couple of the PCs, while the other PCs hang back safely and make ranged attacks.

This is one of my pet-peeves. You can't close with an enemy while also attacking from range and not expect friendly fire to occur. Yeah, sure, the wizard could target a blast-radius at a high point in the room/hallway, over the heads of friendlies, but please don't tell me that you expect arrows or lightning bolts to safely pass by your allies who are choked up in a choke point.

Everyone is crammed in vulnerable to area of attack spells and abilities....

And, yes, if your bad guys don't have those ranged attacks, this won't work. But if they do, the PCS are vulnerable to them

Thank you. Everyone is vulnerable. Especially the guy directly in front of you, friend or foe.

 

[jayoungr]

Has anyone suggested non-dungeon-based adventures yet? There are no doors, rooms, or hallways in a swamp. Put your party in open terrain and see how they fare. With really dense fog, their ranged weapons could become pretty much useless.

I run in a variety of settings. But you can't have every adventure in a foggy swamp, and the doorway thing goes way beyond dungeons--just about any type of building is going to lead to the same approach. Even caverns have the equivalent, where the PCs stand at the entry point to the cavern and chuck fireballs into the main cave from there.