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Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?
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<blockquote data-quote="Victim" data-source="post: 3170702" data-attributes="member: 78"><p>Amulet of natural armor is 2k, not 1k. Plus your chain shirt isn't mithril. Either spend 1k more or drop your AC by 1 because of the max Dex. I think HP are also important to fighting characters; your swordsage has 45. By the way, your character is within 4 lbs of medium encumberance from just his weapon and armor, and can lose his AC bonus. </p><p></p><p>At level 6, swordsages can have 6 readied moves plus 3 stances. You won't have very many strikes of your insightful focus discipline if you're going to with those moves, so your +2 Wis bonus to damage won't come up very often. Of course, your shadowblade feat basically locks you into using Shadow Hand stances, so you probably won't be switching those around very often.</p><p></p><p>For comparison:</p><p></p><p>half orc Fighter 4 Barbarian 2</p><p>STR 20 (24)</p><p>DEX 12</p><p>CON 14 (18)</p><p>INT 10</p><p>WIS 13</p><p>CHA 6</p><p></p><p>Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Iron Will, Weapon Spec, Extra Rage</p><p></p><p>AC 21 -> 19 (+1 FP, +1 natural or deflection, +1 Dex)</p><p>Attack: +13/+8 RAGE!! -> +15/+10</p><p>Damage: 2d6+7 19-20 -> 2d6+10 19-20</p><p>HP: 55 -> 67</p><p></p><p>Uncanny Dodge, Fast Movement (not in use)</p><p></p><p>With extra rage, the character should be able to use rage in most encounters.</p><p></p><p>Average damage when raging. Numbers after slash are with optimal PA (the difference isn't very much except against 15, and that's when everyone is going to PA)</p><p></p><p>Single Attack...............................Full Attack</p><p>AC 15: 19.86/25.58 .................... 36.58/43.07</p><p>AC 20: 16.72/17.88 .................... 28.22/29.1</p><p>AC 25: 11.5/11.55 ...................... 17.77</p><p></p><p>Over 6 rounds, with 3 single attacks and 3 full attacks, the character does 140.94 damage. Not counting any cleaves of course.</p><p></p><p>Now let's take the swordsage. Sneak Attacking, but not using strikes:</p><p></p><p>AC 15: 20.32</p><p>AC 20: 14.67</p><p>AC 25: 9.03</p><p></p><p>Next step is to include his abilities and look at things over 6 rounds. It doesn't really matter at this point whether he full attacks or not, so he'll have 6 standard action attacks. Let's say that he'd ordinarily be able to sneak attack half the time, so with his 2 moves he'll sneak attack 5/6. Since he's already using the fireball thing, I'll switch his level disc focus to Desert Wind and he'll pack 1 other strike (the +1d6+6 fire one). With reach, we'll say he can get in AoO in 2 rounds - once enemies engage, they probably won't provoke and he doesn't have Combat Reflexes to pick off multiples in each wave.</p><p></p><p>So in 6 rounds he does 73.35 damage on his sneak attacks, 29.34 on AoO (I assumed those were sneaks as well), and 7.85 on the round without sneak attacks. So that's 110.54 damage on attacks. He uses the 4d6 counter strike against one foe for 14 more damage (I'm assuming it hit, since it's a touch attack). His concentration check based move adds another 2.275. His fireball attack (assuming 1 target - hey, it's not like the barbarian is using cleave!) adds 6d6+2 damage but has to hit, so that's another 14.95 damage after they fail the save. His DR busting strike (stone dragon, right) adds another 4.55. Finally his last desert wind strike adds 6.825 net damage. </p><p></p><p>Okay, that's 153.14 damage. Dang. I hate it when I do all this work and I don't get the numbers I want. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> Still, I don't think the swordsage demonstrates total supremacy despite his advantage in damage and AC - more full attacks, fire resistance (energy resistance is significantly easier to get than DR), stuff that's immune to sneak attacks, or a different AC could all swing things the barbarian's way. Or even not assuming that enemies fail their save, that the touch attack hits, and that he makes his concentration check. But it's still pretty disapointing. I was figuring that conventional fighter types would have an edge in raw damage but that the swordsage would have a bunch more tricks.</p><p></p><p>I thought about using a spiked chain fighter 2 rogue 4 to maintain more congruence between the characters, since they'd both have trouble if not sneak attacking, skill totals would be pretty much closer, etc. However, that doesn't say much about conventional fighting classes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Victim, post: 3170702, member: 78"] Amulet of natural armor is 2k, not 1k. Plus your chain shirt isn't mithril. Either spend 1k more or drop your AC by 1 because of the max Dex. I think HP are also important to fighting characters; your swordsage has 45. By the way, your character is within 4 lbs of medium encumberance from just his weapon and armor, and can lose his AC bonus. At level 6, swordsages can have 6 readied moves plus 3 stances. You won't have very many strikes of your insightful focus discipline if you're going to with those moves, so your +2 Wis bonus to damage won't come up very often. Of course, your shadowblade feat basically locks you into using Shadow Hand stances, so you probably won't be switching those around very often. For comparison: half orc Fighter 4 Barbarian 2 STR 20 (24) DEX 12 CON 14 (18) INT 10 WIS 13 CHA 6 Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Iron Will, Weapon Spec, Extra Rage AC 21 -> 19 (+1 FP, +1 natural or deflection, +1 Dex) Attack: +13/+8 RAGE!! -> +15/+10 Damage: 2d6+7 19-20 -> 2d6+10 19-20 HP: 55 -> 67 Uncanny Dodge, Fast Movement (not in use) With extra rage, the character should be able to use rage in most encounters. Average damage when raging. Numbers after slash are with optimal PA (the difference isn't very much except against 15, and that's when everyone is going to PA) Single Attack...............................Full Attack AC 15: 19.86/25.58 .................... 36.58/43.07 AC 20: 16.72/17.88 .................... 28.22/29.1 AC 25: 11.5/11.55 ...................... 17.77 Over 6 rounds, with 3 single attacks and 3 full attacks, the character does 140.94 damage. Not counting any cleaves of course. Now let's take the swordsage. Sneak Attacking, but not using strikes: AC 15: 20.32 AC 20: 14.67 AC 25: 9.03 Next step is to include his abilities and look at things over 6 rounds. It doesn't really matter at this point whether he full attacks or not, so he'll have 6 standard action attacks. Let's say that he'd ordinarily be able to sneak attack half the time, so with his 2 moves he'll sneak attack 5/6. Since he's already using the fireball thing, I'll switch his level disc focus to Desert Wind and he'll pack 1 other strike (the +1d6+6 fire one). With reach, we'll say he can get in AoO in 2 rounds - once enemies engage, they probably won't provoke and he doesn't have Combat Reflexes to pick off multiples in each wave. So in 6 rounds he does 73.35 damage on his sneak attacks, 29.34 on AoO (I assumed those were sneaks as well), and 7.85 on the round without sneak attacks. So that's 110.54 damage on attacks. He uses the 4d6 counter strike against one foe for 14 more damage (I'm assuming it hit, since it's a touch attack). His concentration check based move adds another 2.275. His fireball attack (assuming 1 target - hey, it's not like the barbarian is using cleave!) adds 6d6+2 damage but has to hit, so that's another 14.95 damage after they fail the save. His DR busting strike (stone dragon, right) adds another 4.55. Finally his last desert wind strike adds 6.825 net damage. Okay, that's 153.14 damage. Dang. I hate it when I do all this work and I don't get the numbers I want. :) Still, I don't think the swordsage demonstrates total supremacy despite his advantage in damage and AC - more full attacks, fire resistance (energy resistance is significantly easier to get than DR), stuff that's immune to sneak attacks, or a different AC could all swing things the barbarian's way. Or even not assuming that enemies fail their save, that the touch attack hits, and that he makes his concentration check. But it's still pretty disapointing. I was figuring that conventional fighter types would have an edge in raw damage but that the swordsage would have a bunch more tricks. I thought about using a spiked chain fighter 2 rogue 4 to maintain more congruence between the characters, since they'd both have trouble if not sneak attacking, skill totals would be pretty much closer, etc. However, that doesn't say much about conventional fighting classes. [/QUOTE]
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