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Message: <blockquote data-quote="HeapThaumaturgist" data-source="post: 3191996" data-attributes="member: 12332">Um, because, historically in D&D, they've not been broken.  Quite the opposite, really.  Gishes usually turn out very very blah.  Recently there have been some spells and feats that have made it a more attractive option and bring it more in line with other concepts, but the fact that nobody is posting:  "Gish so broken! Help!" speaks to ... the lack of broken!If the book let people play their favorite Inuyasha character in D&D, but it wasn't whacked-out broken ... nobody would complain.  It's not that we all hate anime.  Personally, I probably would want a special setting for it, but I'm not opposed to it on any particular level.  Well ... DragonBallZ is really really dumb.  But I watch lots of anime.  I'm a dork.  I'm even overweight and have a beard.  I am ... Archetypal.Somebody has pointed out before that nobody complains about the Samurai, which is underpowered ... I'll add to the list of "classes nobody complains about", the Spelltheif, the Hexblade, the Ninja ... GMs don't complain about under-powered optional classes.  GMs are all FOR underpowered optional classes.  GMs can ADD stuff to make their players happy ... harder to REMOVE things to make EVERYBODY happy.If somebody wants to play a Samurai, but we all think it is underpowered, I might offer him an extra bonus feat or maybe we'd build it with some maneuvers.  We can do that.  We have the technology.  The player in question then gets to both play the concept that he wanted to play, which makes him happy, and gets some added juice, which makes him happy.  The Samurai doesn't overshadow the Fighter, which makes that guy's player happy, and doesn't overshadow the Wizard, so makes that guy happy.  EVERYBODY IS HAPPY.But say somebody wants to play a Warblade.  Well, here's the horns of a dilemma.  Suddenly, I look like the badguy because I let Lloyd play a Samurai, a non-core class.  I let Samuel take feats from the PHBII.  I'm letting in optional material ... but I'm exercising my option on the Warblade not to let him in.  This makes that player sad.  This adds stress to my fun game night.  Suddenly, I'm not happy and somebody else isn't happy.  This makes things less fun.Or say I let the Warblade in.  It proves to overshadow the Fighter, making that player unhappy.  The Warblade keeps going and going after the Wizard is out of spells, making that player unhappy.  The other two being unhappy makes ME unhappy, because part of GMing is making folks happy.  Now, I'm sure the guy playing the Warblade is happy as a clam.  He's kicking butt, he's taking names, he's making the guy that played the Fighter look like a chump, he's doing Omnislash and he's screaming "WINDSCAR!" when he throws down some hawt maneuvers.  But my game is a less-happy place.That other classes or concepts don't stir complaints from GMs should SAY something about this book.  Not just:  "Grognards fear change!", but that there are legitimate problems.  Spelltheif is a pretty different class ... power-wise, sucks hard ... but different.  Nobody complains about it, though.  Channeled spells are pretty different, but not broken, and nobody complains about them.  Doesn't mean we're unfairly biased against new things or different things or changing things.And, yea, I think if 4th edition were to come along, I think incorporating something like Maneuvers from the ground up would be okay.  Toned down some, a little less anime in places.  Making them work from the ground up with the Fighter would be fine.  People like resource management on a turn-by-turn level, so adding that to the Fighter is a fine idea.  Folks like the fiddly bits at the table, which is why I think Power Attack and Combat Expertise are two of the most popular feats out there.  As I've repeatedly said ... if this expansion would have been something that added to the Fighter ... bolted something on, offered a feat that granted maneuvers, etc etc ... would have LOVED it.  But they trumped the fighter, took it to 11, etc.  That's the source of complaints.--fje</blockquote>

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