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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Slaved" data-source="post: 3193379" data-attributes="member: 43358">8+3+3+2=16 not 17, am I missing something? Still two feats, 10 point buy points, and 8 skill points to get there plus the other restrictions mentioned above.Actually, that is not the arguement, but we can go with it if you like I suppose.I prefer to use the wizard as a buffer plus extra damage potential at range, although I do feel that they should have a higher hd and be able to wear armor like basically everyone else. Stupid sacred cows, need some sacred steak.As such, I give you the haste spell. This nifty little spell will work on the whole party. +1 to AC, +1 to attack rolls, +1 to reflex saves, +30' movement (about), and +1 extra attack on a full attack action.For a normal fighter type person who isnt trying all of these cool little maneuvers this is a huge buff. Yes, this means that it relies on other people in the party to be effective, I am ok with that.As such this spell can add up to hundreds of points of damage, depending on how you want to count. So if we are counting whos is bigger I would assume in a somewhat typical party this wins out over the warblades maneuver. At this point the warblade is actually in a position where using his manuevers could be seen as a detriment, his average damage actually goes down.In the case of the warblade spending two feats, plus the rest to gain an attack that does pretty great damage every other round at best and next level giving up the occasional iterative attack for the pleasure...... it sounds like a great theme but the power level is not really staggering. Saying it can kill a mage in one hit isnt going to convince me either though as there are so many different things that can kill mages easily at the early levels.Still, with a 12 con a mage would have an average of 19 hp at level 5. Assuming that the warblade has moved up and is standing next to the mage then he swings for d20+16 with an attack bonus of, say, +8 (+5 BAB+2strength+1weapon) versus the given AC of 16 earlier. On average the mage lives with about 2 hp left. On a successful hit the warblade can take the mage from full to dead on a roll of 13 or higher and only fails to knock him unconscious on a roll of 1, 2, or 3.And the mage will do whatever it is that mages do I guess.I do know what an ogre would do though, or more appropriately 2 as that would make CR 5. They would attack him dumbly as creatures with the intelligence on the order of "might be able to color within most of the lines" are wont to do.So our intrepid hero has tumbled up to the ogre, we will assume it was successful. He has attacked and dealt some damage, pretty likely after all, it only has a 16 AC. It takes at least 2 hits to take out an ogre with this attack though, so now it is the ogres turn.With some movement and a little bit of cunning they flank the warblade and attack. It doesnt take much to flank, they have reach and it is something that even animals do well. Each attacks with their clubs, lets assume that the warblade has a 18 AC. Chain shirt, heavy shield, and a 14 dexterity. It will take an average of 5 swings to take out the warblade. Two swings are down, now it is the warblades turn.What he does at this point is entirely dependent on his other readied manuevers however. If he has the two save boosts as the other warblade then whatever his single last manuever left is his option or he can make an attack and refresh his big strike. As he is using diamond mind manuevers it seems likely he is also using their weapons, which are rapier, short sword, trident, and bastard sword. None of those are likely to kill the ogre this turn. Assuming he swings and gets his manuevers back it is now onto the ogres, who get two more swings in and the warblade is only a few hp away from being dead.Going through that sort of scenario it looks to me that the warblade and the ogres are decently matched up. The warblade loses on average but with a more offensive selection of manuevers he should be able to improve that.The mage is also likely to be able to take both out, so long as they dont get too close first.As is most any ranged class assuming they spot them far enough away or have a good enough movement.With this it at least seems reasonable. I am sure someone will disagree.I'll take that. Broken is a big bad word and is used too often. Comparing with a barbarian, ranger, cleric, and maybe even the bard would be pretty interesting. I think that all of those are better classes in general than the fighter.Fighter types do multiclass pretty well, that is pretty much a given. Taking a level out of the progression for your class though, not everyone is going to do that.Take a level out of ranger? Less skill points, animal companion is a bit weaker, delays some spells, delays those other high level abilities like hiding in plain sight.Take a level out of barbarian? Delays the bigger and badder rage, delays DR, there is some pretty nice stuff up there.But yeah, it can be worth it, especially depending on the build. It can even be worthwhile to take a level of fighter for certain kinds of builds though and we know how much of a hit it is to take him, you better really like that feat.</blockquote>

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