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Message: <blockquote data-quote="charlesatan" data-source="post: 3202878" data-attributes="member: 20870">First off, if he does manage to connect with both of his attacks, using the math, I don't see how he comes off short (I'd take 4d6+20 over 1d20+17.Second, yes, you don't have to use a greatsword. But speaking from an optimal point of view, it's one of the weapons to take (and along those lines are the falchion if you want a higher threat range for crits, the scythe for a higher crit multiplier, etc.). Or do you want to carry the discussion to unarmed strikes only? Isn't that rather limiting the Fighter's options?Hitting twice isn't as bad as you make it sound. For one thing, you have an additional chance to make a critical. I also forgot that with Boots of Speed (admittedly not in the budget at 5th or even 6th level) or under the effects of a Haste spell, your output increases dramatically (it's not like a WB using Insightful Strike) will benefit from Haste except for the glorified Expeditious Retreat effect and the +1 to AC and Ref saves. You're also forgetting that you still have to hit with your attack for Insightful Strike and with your Con being your primary stat, your total attack bonus is certainly less than the first attack of the Fighter with a Str 18 (but more than his first iterative attack). So if I can miss with my second attack, you can also miss with your Insightful Strike, which is an all-or-nothing move before needing to recharge.Don't get me wrong, Mountain Hammer is great. However, its optimum effectiveness is when you're fighting someone with DR and your damage modifiers doesn't amount to 2d6 when it comes to the iterative attacks. Again, at 6th level, assuming the creature he faces has DR, a Ftr wielding a Greatsword will deal more damage with iterative attacks than Mountain Hammer alone.As for "when you can full attack or not", it's a shifty situation. At 1st-level, I'd say that's true. Any attack can probably fell another monster of equal CR. At 5th-level, unless you're still facing CR 1 or even CR 2 monsters, I don't think that's true. Or sometimes it's plain tactical playing. If I win initiative, I stay in front of the party and wait for the opposition's "Fighter" to charge. I take the hit, then full attack on my turn. I will not charge a group of orcs for example unless I'm sure I can kill them, and even then, that risks me putting myself in place where they can full attack me. Usually I wait for them to come to me, rather than vice versa (for Ftrs, it's usually a question of who can full attack first who wins).The skill points are admittedly pretty, but on the other hand, Martial Adepts also need those skill points as some are related to their maneuvers (Concentration and Tumble comes to mind). d12 hp is also pretty. Great save potential isn't an advantage more than an option. You still have to choose those counters, and they're taking up readied slots. It's like saying a Ftr can take all these feats, yet in the end, he's only stuck with a couple of them. With the "great save potential", you're giving up other potential maneuvers. And we've already pointed out their limitations.Errr, rolling 1's isn't that good of an argument to me. It happens, theoretically, on a 5% chance. What's a better argument is that you have a higher save, period. And again, the limitation there is that you can only do it once until you "recharge". It could be a combination of a Ref and a Will save. Or two Will saves (Charm Person, Charm Person). It doesn't have to be hp related.Honestly, the weapon you mentioned benefits the Ftr more, at least according to your argument. Sure, you benefit from wounding, keen, sure strike, and magebane. But wounding is optimum when you're launching several attacks, not just an "all or nothing attack" that is the nature of most maneuvers. Yes, you benefit from Keen and the question there is like whether you want the 18-20 threat range weapon or the x4 weapon: do you want more chances to crit at a lower multiplier or do you want that rare but crippling strike when you crit? If the latter, then keen's fine with Insightful Strike. If not, iterative attacks with keen lean more towards the former. Sure Strike only matters to those with alignment DR, and if you're using Mountain Hammer, irrelevant. Magebane could possibly give you a +2 to hit but if it's just that you're after, might as well get a +3 weapon. The increased damage won't help with Insightful Strike (but it does Mountain Hammer, but since you've been focusing on Insightful Strike the entire time...). Suffice to say, the Ftr is quite gear dependent and if you have a stingy DM, the martial adepts will come out on top.The mid-level maneuvers are so-so compared to a Full Attack. Admittedly, there's little answer for the high-level maneuvers, but they are comparable to other classes (i.e. gish, spellcasters, etc.).Depends on what encounters your GM is throwing at you and the optimization skills of the person. The Ftr is admittedly easy to play, but on the other hand, also one of the most difficult to optimize (and few people really play the entire 20 classes out for reasons I pointed out in my earlier posts). And it's not like Ftr's can't take maneuvers either.Also, if you're using the WotC says so card on the crits (and I agree with them... Insightful does crit), then I'll pull the Wotc says so as well when it comes to "recharging" maneuvers: it takes a standard action. At 5th-level, that's meaningless, but at later levels, the Ftr can be full attacking while you're stuck with a single attack as you need to recharge.</blockquote>

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