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Warden L6 Utility "Bears Endurance"
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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5726536" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>To cut you a fair shake, I went back and re-read all of your posts on this topic.</p><p></p><p>The bottom line is that you haven't actually posted any real rules that indicate that the action is 100% totally resolved the moment damage is calculated and applied.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In reality, the action is resolved when everything for that action is finished. Not some of it. All of it. It's not when the attack roll and damage is resolved, it's when the action is resolved.</p><p></p><p>The target is damaged, stunned, slid, has made hazard rolls, and all immediate interrupts are totally finished and complete.</p><p></p><p>How can the action be totally resolved if an immediate interrupt on that action has not yet been resolved? This is illogical.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Let's look at other rules:</p><p></p><p>"An immediate reaction lets you act in response to a trigger. The triggering action, event, or condition occurs and is completely resolved before you take your reaction"</p><p></p><p>An immediate reaction occurs after the action, event, or condition is COMPLETELY resolved. Hence by definition, an immediate interrupt occurs BEFORE the action, event, or condition is completely resolved.</p><p></p><p>If the action is not completely resolved when a PC goes to zero hit points, then it can be an immediate interrupt. We know for a fact that the PC's state changes to dying, the PC falls unconscious, and other things can occur after the PC drops to zero hit points. Hence, your conclusion that the action is completely resolved before the PC falls to zero hit points is in error and does not follow from the rules.</p><p></p><p>Your rules quotes did not prove otherwise. By definition, having the PC go below zero IS part of the resolution of an action. If it were not, that trigger could only exist for an immediate reaction. Since it exists for an immediate interrupt, it must be handled before we go to the next action for the character. It's still part of the overall resolution of the original action.</p><p></p><p>You are adding artificial rules where none exist.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Let's use an example.</p><p></p><p>A PC has 10 hit points.</p><p></p><p>The PC gets hit and takes 15 hit points.</p><p></p><p>The PC is at -5 hit points.</p><p></p><p>According to you, the action resolution is complete.</p><p></p><p>But, it isn't quite 100% complete yet:</p><p></p><p>1) The PC falls unconscious.</p><p></p><p>2) An immediate interrupt from a different PC can occur when the PC falls unconscious.</p><p></p><p>3) The PC falls prone.</p><p></p><p>4) An immediate interrupt from a different PC can occur when an ally falls prone. That interrupt could be a heal that prevents the PC from being below zero and from falling prone.</p><p></p><p>5) The PC is dying.</p><p></p><p>6) An immediate interrupt from a different PC can occur when an ally is dying.</p><p></p><p>7) Any effects of the power that occur after the attack portion of the action are then resolved. There are a ton of creature powers that allow the creature to shift after the attack.</p><p></p><p>The action isn't finished until it is 100% complete. Not when it is mostly complete.</p><p></p><p></p><p>One flaw in your logic is that you are discussing the attack resolution at one point in your argument, and the action resolution at another.</p><p></p><p>"If an interrupt invalidates a triggering <strong>action</strong>, that action is lost."</p><p></p><p>It's when the action is invalidated, not just when the attack is invalidated. The attack might be totally successful, the PC drops below zero hit points, and then the Warlord pulls out Courageous Insight and the PC is no longer even hit.</p><p></p><p>Oops. This power just went backwards in time and removed the hit when a PC fell to zero.</p><p></p><p>I guess at least one designer doesn't agree with your interpretation.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 5726536, member: 2011"] To cut you a fair shake, I went back and re-read all of your posts on this topic. The bottom line is that you haven't actually posted any real rules that indicate that the action is 100% totally resolved the moment damage is calculated and applied. In reality, the action is resolved when everything for that action is finished. Not some of it. All of it. It's not when the attack roll and damage is resolved, it's when the action is resolved. The target is damaged, stunned, slid, has made hazard rolls, and all immediate interrupts are totally finished and complete. How can the action be totally resolved if an immediate interrupt on that action has not yet been resolved? This is illogical. Let's look at other rules: "An immediate reaction lets you act in response to a trigger. The triggering action, event, or condition occurs and is completely resolved before you take your reaction" An immediate reaction occurs after the action, event, or condition is COMPLETELY resolved. Hence by definition, an immediate interrupt occurs BEFORE the action, event, or condition is completely resolved. If the action is not completely resolved when a PC goes to zero hit points, then it can be an immediate interrupt. We know for a fact that the PC's state changes to dying, the PC falls unconscious, and other things can occur after the PC drops to zero hit points. Hence, your conclusion that the action is completely resolved before the PC falls to zero hit points is in error and does not follow from the rules. Your rules quotes did not prove otherwise. By definition, having the PC go below zero IS part of the resolution of an action. If it were not, that trigger could only exist for an immediate reaction. Since it exists for an immediate interrupt, it must be handled before we go to the next action for the character. It's still part of the overall resolution of the original action. You are adding artificial rules where none exist. Let's use an example. A PC has 10 hit points. The PC gets hit and takes 15 hit points. The PC is at -5 hit points. According to you, the action resolution is complete. But, it isn't quite 100% complete yet: 1) The PC falls unconscious. 2) An immediate interrupt from a different PC can occur when the PC falls unconscious. 3) The PC falls prone. 4) An immediate interrupt from a different PC can occur when an ally falls prone. That interrupt could be a heal that prevents the PC from being below zero and from falling prone. 5) The PC is dying. 6) An immediate interrupt from a different PC can occur when an ally is dying. 7) Any effects of the power that occur after the attack portion of the action are then resolved. There are a ton of creature powers that allow the creature to shift after the attack. The action isn't finished until it is 100% complete. Not when it is mostly complete. One flaw in your logic is that you are discussing the attack resolution at one point in your argument, and the action resolution at another. "If an interrupt invalidates a triggering [b]action[/b], that action is lost." It's when the action is invalidated, not just when the attack is invalidated. The attack might be totally successful, the PC drops below zero hit points, and then the Warlord pulls out Courageous Insight and the PC is no longer even hit. Oops. This power just went backwards in time and removed the hit when a PC fell to zero. I guess at least one designer doesn't agree with your interpretation. [/QUOTE]
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