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Warforged Disguise Kit
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<blockquote data-quote="Hawk Diesel" data-source="post: 7833719" data-attributes="member: 59848"><p>Hey [USER=6037]@Perun[/USER]. So first note that I am not trying to change or persuade your thinking. All play styles are valid. But I would like to engage your argument.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is true, to an extent (I'll get more into my differences in thinking about it below). However, it is not just "built-in." A built-in disguise kit could be just a compartment in the chest that opens and is capable of holding the items that make up a disguise kit. The word that is specifically used in the description is "integrated." It is not just a compartment that holds a disguise kit. The warforged's body, or some part of it, <em>is</em> the disguise kit. They are not pieces that can be separated from the warforged. A warforged cannot hand someone else their disguise kit to use any more than I can literally give you my hand so that you can use it. I believe this use of "integrated" versus "built-in" is important. The difference is slight, but I think significant.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would say that you are half-right from my perspective, but missing something. A skirmisher warforged rogue does not have an integrated tool, but they may have expertise in disguise. They would need to use a disguise kit the same as any other creature, and I think in this situation such a warforged should have a hard time passing themselves off as human. It is not a simple matter of putting on some makeup and a wig.</p><p></p><p>But in addition to RAW, we also have to consider RAI (Rules as Intended) and RAF (Rules as Fun). We can't base our whole game experience on RAW.</p><p></p><p>Let's start with Rules as Intended. This is slightly difficult, because we don't know what Ketih Baker was specifically intending with these rules, but we can infer this to some extent based on the presentation of the ability and knowledge of the setting. Let's first consider what it means when a Warforged Envoy selects a Disguise Kit as their integrated tool. This is not like selecting a normal class proficiency. This is something that is inherent into the very being of the warforged. It is a literal part of who they are, and integral to how they function and the purpose they were made for. Such a warforged is not using a disguise kit. They <em>are</em> the disguise kit. I don't think it was intended that an integrated disguise kit is the exact same as a normal disguise kit. I see a warforged with an integrated disguise kit actually sprouting hair, growing artificial skin over their head and hands, having eyes that rotate to reveal different kinds (similar to Man-E-Faces from He-Man), and so on.</p><p></p><p>No let's look at Rules as Fun. Warforged are a very distinct race. As they are presented in Eberron, there is literally nothing that they could easily pass themselves off as other than a different warforged, golems, or shield guardians (and none of these creatures are prevalent enough for the average NPC to need to be familiar enough to tell specific individuals apart). This means that if we treat a warforged envoy with an integrated disguise kit as any normal warforged that has access to a disguise kit, we are severely hampering that player's opportunities to be effective and use something that is so central to the core identity of that particular subrace of warforged. If their integrated disguise kit is not sufficient to allow them to allow them to pass as a different race, then we are risking severely hampering that player's fun. They may feel penalized for making the "wrong"choice with their integrated tool, and grow to dislike their character because they can not use their abilities in a way that can meaningfully impact the game, or in the way they may have imagined for their character.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with this. I don't think having an integrated disguise kit contradicts the normal process of making disguise checks or trying to pass yourself off as someone else.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And THIS is where we disagree most. How often would a warforged in actual gameplay be likely to be in a situation where they need to disguise themselves as a golem or shield guardian? How many human or demi-humans have been around other warforged enough to be able to tell them apart? If you were looking at your computer and another one that was the same model, could you tell them apart? That is how I see most races seeing and treating warforged. Most people can't tell them apart any better than they could identify their specific appliances. Personally, I wouldn't even require a disguise check for a warforged to try and pass as another warforged, unless you were trying to fool another warforged. Where is the player's opportunity to benefit from their racial ability? Is there any situation when a warforged with an integrated theives' tool would get a penalty that another race would not receive, specifically due to their race? You are severely limiting the opportunities that a player has to be effective in using their racial ability, and negating their racial expertise via penalties or heightened DCs when they would attempt to use their ability outside that extremely narrow window.</p><p></p><p>Additionally, yes, I would agree that a dragonborn trying to pass themselves off as human would be more difficult. But that dragonborn also does not have a special, built-in racial ability to create disguises from their body. And neither do most warforged. But to penalize a warforged with an integrated disguise kit when trying to pass themselves off as human or demi-human, in my view, is effectively nerfing a player who has an interesting and creative idea. It doesn't break the game to allow it, but by nerfing and penalizing the player it can significantly negatively effect their experience trying to play that character.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If that was all Masque could do, there's no way she would be effective, for the following reasons:</p><p></p><p>1) High-value targets do not always have warforged around. Even if there are a lot of warforged (I contend that they make up a very tiny portion of the population and thus are not so prevalent), not every one uses them, trusts them, or could afford them. House Deneith or House Thrashk are much more likely to act as guards. Additionally, warforged were built for war, not labor. They would not have been used as servants or maids until after the war ended and they were no longer needed as soldiers. I argue that the number of high-value targets that keep a warforged close enough to give Masque the access she needed to be an effective assassin is quite low.</p><p></p><p>2) High-value targets dying creates a lot of attention and scrutiny. If Masque could only pass herself off as a warforged, then it would be fairly easy to tell after a couple of successful executions that a warforged was doing the killing. That would create increased scrutiny of warforged, and high-value targets would likely reduce or cease all interactions with warforged.</p><p></p><p>3) Why would Masque be built with an integrated disguise kit that she could not use to easily pass herself off as non-warforged? Why not choose an integrated thieves' tool to increase her effectiveness at infiltration? Or perhaps a poisoner's kit? If an integrated disguise kit was chosen, it was likely done intentionally to make her more effective. If, in order to experience any consistent degree in success, she were limited to only passing herself off as another construct, then I seriously doubt she would have been created with an integrated disguise kit.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Very true. I wholeheartedly disagree with your perspective and interpretation and would be very reluctant to play at your table, but I respect your position as equally valid.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hawk Diesel, post: 7833719, member: 59848"] Hey [USER=6037]@Perun[/USER]. So first note that I am not trying to change or persuade your thinking. All play styles are valid. But I would like to engage your argument. This is true, to an extent (I'll get more into my differences in thinking about it below). However, it is not just "built-in." A built-in disguise kit could be just a compartment in the chest that opens and is capable of holding the items that make up a disguise kit. The word that is specifically used in the description is "integrated." It is not just a compartment that holds a disguise kit. The warforged's body, or some part of it, [I]is[/I] the disguise kit. They are not pieces that can be separated from the warforged. A warforged cannot hand someone else their disguise kit to use any more than I can literally give you my hand so that you can use it. I believe this use of "integrated" versus "built-in" is important. The difference is slight, but I think significant. I would say that you are half-right from my perspective, but missing something. A skirmisher warforged rogue does not have an integrated tool, but they may have expertise in disguise. They would need to use a disguise kit the same as any other creature, and I think in this situation such a warforged should have a hard time passing themselves off as human. It is not a simple matter of putting on some makeup and a wig. But in addition to RAW, we also have to consider RAI (Rules as Intended) and RAF (Rules as Fun). We can't base our whole game experience on RAW. Let's start with Rules as Intended. This is slightly difficult, because we don't know what Ketih Baker was specifically intending with these rules, but we can infer this to some extent based on the presentation of the ability and knowledge of the setting. Let's first consider what it means when a Warforged Envoy selects a Disguise Kit as their integrated tool. This is not like selecting a normal class proficiency. This is something that is inherent into the very being of the warforged. It is a literal part of who they are, and integral to how they function and the purpose they were made for. Such a warforged is not using a disguise kit. They [I]are[/I] the disguise kit. I don't think it was intended that an integrated disguise kit is the exact same as a normal disguise kit. I see a warforged with an integrated disguise kit actually sprouting hair, growing artificial skin over their head and hands, having eyes that rotate to reveal different kinds (similar to Man-E-Faces from He-Man), and so on. No let's look at Rules as Fun. Warforged are a very distinct race. As they are presented in Eberron, there is literally nothing that they could easily pass themselves off as other than a different warforged, golems, or shield guardians (and none of these creatures are prevalent enough for the average NPC to need to be familiar enough to tell specific individuals apart). This means that if we treat a warforged envoy with an integrated disguise kit as any normal warforged that has access to a disguise kit, we are severely hampering that player's opportunities to be effective and use something that is so central to the core identity of that particular subrace of warforged. If their integrated disguise kit is not sufficient to allow them to allow them to pass as a different race, then we are risking severely hampering that player's fun. They may feel penalized for making the "wrong"choice with their integrated tool, and grow to dislike their character because they can not use their abilities in a way that can meaningfully impact the game, or in the way they may have imagined for their character. I agree with this. I don't think having an integrated disguise kit contradicts the normal process of making disguise checks or trying to pass yourself off as someone else. And THIS is where we disagree most. How often would a warforged in actual gameplay be likely to be in a situation where they need to disguise themselves as a golem or shield guardian? How many human or demi-humans have been around other warforged enough to be able to tell them apart? If you were looking at your computer and another one that was the same model, could you tell them apart? That is how I see most races seeing and treating warforged. Most people can't tell them apart any better than they could identify their specific appliances. Personally, I wouldn't even require a disguise check for a warforged to try and pass as another warforged, unless you were trying to fool another warforged. Where is the player's opportunity to benefit from their racial ability? Is there any situation when a warforged with an integrated theives' tool would get a penalty that another race would not receive, specifically due to their race? You are severely limiting the opportunities that a player has to be effective in using their racial ability, and negating their racial expertise via penalties or heightened DCs when they would attempt to use their ability outside that extremely narrow window. Additionally, yes, I would agree that a dragonborn trying to pass themselves off as human would be more difficult. But that dragonborn also does not have a special, built-in racial ability to create disguises from their body. And neither do most warforged. But to penalize a warforged with an integrated disguise kit when trying to pass themselves off as human or demi-human, in my view, is effectively nerfing a player who has an interesting and creative idea. It doesn't break the game to allow it, but by nerfing and penalizing the player it can significantly negatively effect their experience trying to play that character. If that was all Masque could do, there's no way she would be effective, for the following reasons: 1) High-value targets do not always have warforged around. Even if there are a lot of warforged (I contend that they make up a very tiny portion of the population and thus are not so prevalent), not every one uses them, trusts them, or could afford them. House Deneith or House Thrashk are much more likely to act as guards. Additionally, warforged were built for war, not labor. They would not have been used as servants or maids until after the war ended and they were no longer needed as soldiers. I argue that the number of high-value targets that keep a warforged close enough to give Masque the access she needed to be an effective assassin is quite low. 2) High-value targets dying creates a lot of attention and scrutiny. If Masque could only pass herself off as a warforged, then it would be fairly easy to tell after a couple of successful executions that a warforged was doing the killing. That would create increased scrutiny of warforged, and high-value targets would likely reduce or cease all interactions with warforged. 3) Why would Masque be built with an integrated disguise kit that she could not use to easily pass herself off as non-warforged? Why not choose an integrated thieves' tool to increase her effectiveness at infiltration? Or perhaps a poisoner's kit? If an integrated disguise kit was chosen, it was likely done intentionally to make her more effective. If, in order to experience any consistent degree in success, she were limited to only passing herself off as another construct, then I seriously doubt she would have been created with an integrated disguise kit. Very true. I wholeheartedly disagree with your perspective and interpretation and would be very reluctant to play at your table, but I respect your position as equally valid. [/QUOTE]
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