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Warhammer frpg - 2e vs 4e
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 8455718" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>You're thinking of things like how I like old 1E Brettonia better than new 2/3/4E Brettonia. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> Yes, that post was made when I still had hopes of using 4E. I listed all my beefs with Warhammer in general.</p><p></p><p>However, saying "a lot" of the points are like that is an exaggeration. However, that matters little. I gave you the link as a starting point - I've written several posts in that forum on 4E frustrations. And I gave you the link with the intention you should focus on the 4E-specific stuff after all... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>There is so much more to it. Lemme just bring up two examples. Both problems have been confirmed through extensive playtesting.</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wizards start out super-crappy, but become brokenly powerful once in their third careers or so. The math behind 4E Success Levels is completely broken and does not work. It is simply inept design.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><s>Counterspelling</s> Dispelling just ruins the game. It basically means that each PC wizard shuts down and is shut down by an enemy wizard/spellcaster. That's no fun.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mathematically it's obvious that powerful awesome spells just never see use - you're far better off using low-CN spells each round. As you get better, you <strong>still don't</strong> switch to the powerful spells, since it is simply better to keep using Bolt or Blast. Why? Overcasting. Since achieving many Success Levels adds both more damage AND - through overcasting - more targets, you're far better off avoiding high-CN spells where you gain fewer SLs. In conclusion: when your Skills are low you stick to low-CN spells because, well, that's your only option. But when your Skills are high you still stick to low-CN spells because the developers are bad at math.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The idea you should spend several rounds "charging up" an awesome spell (called "channelling") just falls apart. Again, doing something NOW is almost always better than possibly doing something in the future. And when low-CN spells allow you do act now <strong>and</strong> getting stronger results (through Overcasting)... well, I'm sure you see the problem.</li> </ul><p></p><p>Now for something I discuss over here:</p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.windsofchaos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=206&p=2516#p2516[/URL]</p><p></p><p>4th Edition just blithely allows you to add up Characteristics and Skills to much higher levels than 2E. That's fun, you say. No, it's bad design. 4E does this and also introduces opposed Tests as the default resolution mechanic: many many Talents allow you to pit your Skill vs the foe's Characteristic. Once you've seen a player character with 80% something in Charm attempt to make a stubborn NPC (still with 30% in Willpower) do something, you realize the game has given this character a persuasion power that puts Charm spells to shame. We're talking full-on Vampire's dominate ability here. Ask anything, and the system will overwhelmingly likely tell you the NPC agrees to it. When you tell someone to jump, the only option is to ask "how high?". That is broken, it is not fun, and it is decidedly not in the style of Warhammer.</p><p></p><p>In 2E 80% vs 30% isn't so bad, in regular combat for instance. Sure you hit a lot and seldom miss, but the opponent's ability to defend is still 30%. In 4E the same 80% vs 30% contest is so brokenly lopsided it isn't even funny, since if you roll 60 something, your foe's ability to defend is lowered by your Success Levels - from 30% to maybe 10%. This is just one out of many MANY examples where you should never change two variables at once. Taken in isolation, going with Characteristic + Skill might work, and opposed Tests might also work. But add both to the same game, and apparently never test it for high-Experience heroes, and you get a mess like WFRP4. And that's before you add completely broken Talents into the mix...</p><p></p><p>It's like someone designs a version of Dungeons & Dragons where you allow heroes to increase their attack score or spell save DC (or whatever) without the system ensuring that the defenses of the opposition scale along with it. The WFRP4 devs completely missed WHY skills in 2E are limited to three levels and +20% maximum, with zero Talents to increase that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 8455718, member: 12731"] You're thinking of things like how I like old 1E Brettonia better than new 2/3/4E Brettonia. :) Yes, that post was made when I still had hopes of using 4E. I listed all my beefs with Warhammer in general. However, saying "a lot" of the points are like that is an exaggeration. However, that matters little. I gave you the link as a starting point - I've written several posts in that forum on 4E frustrations. And I gave you the link with the intention you should focus on the 4E-specific stuff after all... ;) There is so much more to it. Lemme just bring up two examples. Both problems have been confirmed through extensive playtesting. [LIST] [*]Wizards start out super-crappy, but become brokenly powerful once in their third careers or so. The math behind 4E Success Levels is completely broken and does not work. It is simply inept design. [*][s]Counterspelling[/s] Dispelling just ruins the game. It basically means that each PC wizard shuts down and is shut down by an enemy wizard/spellcaster. That's no fun. [*]Mathematically it's obvious that powerful awesome spells just never see use - you're far better off using low-CN spells each round. As you get better, you [B]still don't[/B] switch to the powerful spells, since it is simply better to keep using Bolt or Blast. Why? Overcasting. Since achieving many Success Levels adds both more damage AND - through overcasting - more targets, you're far better off avoiding high-CN spells where you gain fewer SLs. In conclusion: when your Skills are low you stick to low-CN spells because, well, that's your only option. But when your Skills are high you still stick to low-CN spells because the developers are bad at math. [*]The idea you should spend several rounds "charging up" an awesome spell (called "channelling") just falls apart. Again, doing something NOW is almost always better than possibly doing something in the future. And when low-CN spells allow you do act now [B]and[/B] getting stronger results (through Overcasting)... well, I'm sure you see the problem. [/LIST] Now for something I discuss over here: [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.windsofchaos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=206&p=2516#p2516[/URL] 4th Edition just blithely allows you to add up Characteristics and Skills to much higher levels than 2E. That's fun, you say. No, it's bad design. 4E does this and also introduces opposed Tests as the default resolution mechanic: many many Talents allow you to pit your Skill vs the foe's Characteristic. Once you've seen a player character with 80% something in Charm attempt to make a stubborn NPC (still with 30% in Willpower) do something, you realize the game has given this character a persuasion power that puts Charm spells to shame. We're talking full-on Vampire's dominate ability here. Ask anything, and the system will overwhelmingly likely tell you the NPC agrees to it. When you tell someone to jump, the only option is to ask "how high?". That is broken, it is not fun, and it is decidedly not in the style of Warhammer. In 2E 80% vs 30% isn't so bad, in regular combat for instance. Sure you hit a lot and seldom miss, but the opponent's ability to defend is still 30%. In 4E the same 80% vs 30% contest is so brokenly lopsided it isn't even funny, since if you roll 60 something, your foe's ability to defend is lowered by your Success Levels - from 30% to maybe 10%. This is just one out of many MANY examples where you should never change two variables at once. Taken in isolation, going with Characteristic + Skill might work, and opposed Tests might also work. But add both to the same game, and apparently never test it for high-Experience heroes, and you get a mess like WFRP4. And that's before you add completely broken Talents into the mix... It's like someone designs a version of Dungeons & Dragons where you allow heroes to increase their attack score or spell save DC (or whatever) without the system ensuring that the defenses of the opposition scale along with it. The WFRP4 devs completely missed WHY skills in 2E are limited to three levels and +20% maximum, with zero Talents to increase that. [/QUOTE]
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