Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Warlock Archetype Curse scaling & Herald multiclassing
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Anonymous3" data-source="post: 9732970" data-attributes="member: 7046807"><p>Ok, so I went and created five combinations using Herald/Fighter/Warlock so that I could discriminate real differences between them and determine whether the Warlock dip was significant. Figuring out how to do this was a challenge because I didn't know if focusing on the caster side of a Herald was more important than it's martial aspects. This is a little more challenging in A5e because Herald slots can be converted into exertion. Ultimately, I found that Heralds fit into the "fighter" chassis more than a "spellcaster" chassis. This means that although spell progression is important it is not as important to the Herald as a full caster. More important are abilities that support the Herald as a fighter. Spells, features or abilities that support this idea will be chosen over ones that support being a spellcaster.</p><p></p><p>To make the comparison simpler I did the following:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Converted all spell slots into exertion*</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Considered a single day of combat (long and short abilities combined; additional short rests just boost exertion and damage out so it is meaningful here)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dual wielded (four attacks; wanted to maximise 1d4 <a href="https://a5e.tools/node/3785" target="_blank">Spellbinder's Curse</a> damage)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">All attacks hit</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Critical hit chance ignored</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://a5e.tools/rules/fighter" target="_blank">Technical Fighting Style</a> (+2 dmg)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://a5e.tools/rules/fighter" target="_blank">Maneuver Specialization</a> (2 exertion; multiple attacks; +2 dmg; -1 exertion)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Used the <a href="https://a5e.tools/node/679" target="_blank">Lean Into It</a> Combat Maneuver (1 exertion cost in this setup)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Weapon damage ignored - focus is be bonus damage from features.</li> </ul><p>I chose <a href="https://a5e.tools/node/679" target="_blank">Lean into It</a> (LII) in this basic analysis but it could be any Maneuver that benefits from Maneuver Specialization that promotes damage. Choosing 2 exertion vs a 3 exertion maneuver made a big difference. Here is the summary:</p><p></p><p> </p><table style='width: 102%'><tr><td style='width: 16.6667%'></td><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>(A) Hrld9/Ftr1</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>(B) Hrld7/Ftr3</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6666%'><strong>(C) Hrld6/Ftr4</strong></td><td style='width: 18.7485%'><strong>(D) Hrld6/Ftr3/Wrlk1</strong></td><td style='width: 15.5799%'><strong>(E) Hrld8/Ftr1/Wrlk1</strong></td></tr><tr><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>Damage features</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>20 LII Attacks</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>28 LII Attacks</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6666%'><strong>25 LII Attacks</strong></td><td style='width: 18.7485%'><strong>24 LII Attacks</strong></td><td style='width: 15.5799%'><strong>9 LII Attacks</strong></td></tr><tr><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>LII damage</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6667%'>160</td><td style='width: 16.6667%'>448</td><td style='width: 16.6666%'>400</td><td style='width: 18.7485%'>384</td><td style='width: 15.5799%'>112</td></tr><tr><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>Smite damage</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6667%'>48</td><td style='width: 16.6667%'>32</td><td style='width: 16.6666%'>32</td><td style='width: 18.7485%'>32</td><td style='width: 15.5799%'>32</td></tr><tr><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>Wrlk Curse</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6667%'>0</td><td style='width: 16.6667%'>0</td><td style='width: 16.6666%'>0</td><td style='width: 18.7485%'>80</td><td style='width: 15.5799%'>80</td></tr><tr><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>ASI +2 Strength</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6667%'>40</td><td style='width: 16.6667%'>0</td><td style='width: 16.6666%'>50</td><td style='width: 18.7485%'>0</td><td style='width: 15.5799%'>28</td></tr><tr><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>Total</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>248</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>480</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6666%'><strong>482</strong></td><td style='width: 18.7485%'><strong>496</strong></td><td style='width: 15.5799%'><strong>252</strong></td></tr><tr><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>% of baseline</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>100%</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6667%'><strong>193.55%</strong></td><td style='width: 16.6666%'><strong>194.35%</strong></td><td style='width: 18.7485%'><strong>200%</strong></td><td style='width: 15.5799%'><strong>101.61%</strong></td></tr></table><p></p><p></p><p>Build A is the baseline to beat, and together with C are the only builds that have two (2) ASI - ASI are a big deal and often worth trading out for a little less damage if you're winning elsewhere. Build A has the most spell slots and I consider using the 3rd level slots for Spirit Guardians* instead of exertion but did not net more damage. I'm also not sold on Spirit Guardians as we move in Tier 2 play. Comparing build A vs B, for instance, you have way more exertion but no specialization means your maneuvers costs twice as much which translates into reduced overall damage.</p><p></p><p>Your experience shows that a Warlock dip doesn't make sense for overall damage (build E). The real damage changer is Maneuver Specialization (build B, C, D) where it a there is a big jump in damage over baseline. If you want to eek out every bit of damage then build D nets the highest but at the cost - the biggest being an ASI (If you took +2 strength on build C would increase it's damage by 100 which would be it around 150% over baseline. Additionally, the Warlock dip becomes a stronger pick if your game provides for at least one short rest which I did not facture into these numbers.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Anonymous3, post: 9732970, member: 7046807"] Ok, so I went and created five combinations using Herald/Fighter/Warlock so that I could discriminate real differences between them and determine whether the Warlock dip was significant. Figuring out how to do this was a challenge because I didn't know if focusing on the caster side of a Herald was more important than it's martial aspects. This is a little more challenging in A5e because Herald slots can be converted into exertion. Ultimately, I found that Heralds fit into the "fighter" chassis more than a "spellcaster" chassis. This means that although spell progression is important it is not as important to the Herald as a full caster. More important are abilities that support the Herald as a fighter. Spells, features or abilities that support this idea will be chosen over ones that support being a spellcaster. To make the comparison simpler I did the following: [LIST] [*]Converted all spell slots into exertion* [*]Considered a single day of combat (long and short abilities combined; additional short rests just boost exertion and damage out so it is meaningful here) [*]Dual wielded (four attacks; wanted to maximise 1d4 [URL='https://a5e.tools/node/3785']Spellbinder's Curse[/URL] damage) [*]All attacks hit [*]Critical hit chance ignored [*][URL='https://a5e.tools/rules/fighter']Technical Fighting Style[/URL] (+2 dmg) [*][URL='https://a5e.tools/rules/fighter']Maneuver Specialization[/URL] (2 exertion; multiple attacks; +2 dmg; -1 exertion) [*]Used the [URL='https://a5e.tools/node/679']Lean Into It[/URL] Combat Maneuver (1 exertion cost in this setup) [*]Weapon damage ignored - focus is be bonus damage from features. [/LIST] I chose [URL='https://a5e.tools/node/679']Lean into It[/URL] (LII) in this basic analysis but it could be any Maneuver that benefits from Maneuver Specialization that promotes damage. Choosing 2 exertion vs a 3 exertion maneuver made a big difference. Here is the summary: [TABLE width="102%"] [TR] [td width="16.6667%"][/td] [td width="16.6667%"][B](A) Hrld9/Ftr1[/B][/td][td width="16.6667%"][B](B) Hrld7/Ftr3[/B][/td][td width="16.6666%"][B](C) Hrld6/Ftr4[/B][/td][td width="18.7485%"][B](D) Hrld6/Ftr3/Wrlk1[/B][/td][td width="15.5799%"][B](E) Hrld8/Ftr1/Wrlk1[/B][/td] [/TR] [TR] [td width="16.6667%"][B]Damage features[/B][/td][td width="16.6667%"][B]20 LII Attacks[/B][/td][td width="16.6667%"][B]28 LII Attacks[/B][/td][td width="16.6666%"][B]25 LII Attacks[/B][/td][td width="18.7485%"][B]24 LII Attacks[/B][/td][td width="15.5799%"][B]9 LII Attacks[/B][/td] [/TR] [TR] [td width="16.6667%"][B]LII damage[/B][/td][td width="16.6667%"]160[/td][td width="16.6667%"]448[/td][td width="16.6666%"]400[/td][td width="18.7485%"]384[/td][td width="15.5799%"]112[/td] [/TR] [TR] [td width="16.6667%"][B]Smite damage[/B][/td][td width="16.6667%"]48[/td][td width="16.6667%"]32[/td][td width="16.6666%"]32[/td][td width="18.7485%"]32[/td][td width="15.5799%"]32[/td] [/TR] [TR] [td width="16.6667%"][B]Wrlk Curse[/B][/td][td width="16.6667%"]0[/td][td width="16.6667%"]0[/td][td width="16.6666%"]0[/td][td width="18.7485%"]80[/td][td width="15.5799%"]80[/td] [/TR] [TR] [td width="16.6667%"][B]ASI +2 Strength[/B][/td][td width="16.6667%"]40[/td][td width="16.6667%"]0[/td][td width="16.6666%"]50[/td][td width="18.7485%"]0[/td][td width="15.5799%"]28[/td] [/TR] [TR] [td width="16.6667%"][B]Total[/B][/td][td width="16.6667%"][B]248[/B][/td] [td width="16.6667%"][B]480[/B][/td][td width="16.6666%"][B]482[/B][/td][td width="18.7485%"][B]496[/B][/td][td width="15.5799%"][B]252[/B][/td] [/TR] [TR] [td width="16.6667%"][B]% of baseline[/B][/td][td width="16.6667%"][B]100%[/B][/td][td width="16.6667%"][B]193.55%[/B][/td][td width="16.6666%"][B]194.35%[/B][/td][td width="18.7485%"][B]200%[/B][/td][td width="15.5799%"][B]101.61%[/B][/td] [/TR] [/TABLE] Build A is the baseline to beat, and together with C are the only builds that have two (2) ASI - ASI are a big deal and often worth trading out for a little less damage if you're winning elsewhere. Build A has the most spell slots and I consider using the 3rd level slots for Spirit Guardians* instead of exertion but did not net more damage. I'm also not sold on Spirit Guardians as we move in Tier 2 play. Comparing build A vs B, for instance, you have way more exertion but no specialization means your maneuvers costs twice as much which translates into reduced overall damage. Your experience shows that a Warlock dip doesn't make sense for overall damage (build E). The real damage changer is Maneuver Specialization (build B, C, D) where it a there is a big jump in damage over baseline. If you want to eek out every bit of damage then build D nets the highest but at the cost - the biggest being an ASI (If you took +2 strength on build C would increase it's damage by 100 which would be it around 150% over baseline. Additionally, the Warlock dip becomes a stronger pick if your game provides for at least one short rest which I did not facture into these numbers. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Warlock Archetype Curse scaling & Herald multiclassing
Top
