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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9007987" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>Oh it's still very much dip-<em>worthy</em>, there may even ultimately be some great combos from doing so. Importantly though it's not dip-<em>primary</em> design. With the fiend patron we have now a two level dip grants </p><p>[spoiler="the following"]</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Two arcane list cantrip</strong>s. Barring combo specific synergies & possible changes to cantrips I'd imagine these to often be something like guidance & resistance<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Unexpectedly those are not on the current packet spell listings though so I wouldn't be surprised to see them get well deserved heavy reworking from the last version we had in the paladin & druid packet and-or moved to being class/archetype specific abilities. No matter what these are probably going to be the editions A & S tier arcane list cantrips, any cantrips that synergize (ie sun cleric+firebolt), or just another cantrip that might be useful ()ie message or whatever</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1 caster level (ROUNDUP1/2+1/2) & access to first level arcane spells (ie <strong>shield</strong>!) or 3 prepared arcane spells & two first level slots depending on if the other side of the warlock dip is a caster or not.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>A pact boon</strong>: This will key off wis/cha/or int & carries extra benefits depending on choice. Since we are talking about dios & charop it's more useful to group those by attrib than their names,<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Wis</strong>: <br /> [spoiler="Pact weapon"] Conjuration Cantrip (Warlock) <br /> Casting Time: Action <br /> Range: Self <br /> Component: S <br /> Duration: 24 hours <br /> Tracing arcane sigils in the air, you conjure a <br /> Simple or Martial melee weapon of your choice <br /> in your outstretched hand, or you create a bond <br /> with a magic weapon you touch. The weapon you <br /> conjure or touch must lack the Heavy property, <br /> and the spell fails if you touch a magic item that <br /> is attuned to someone else. <br /> For the duration, the weapon grants you the <br /> following benefits: <br /> <strong>Eldritch Warrior.</strong> When you attack with the <br /> weapon, you can use your spellcasting ability <br /> modifier for the attack and damage rolls, <br /> instead of using Strength or Dexterity. <br /> Proficiency. You have proficiency with the <br /> weapon. <br /> <strong>Returning Weapon.</strong> If the weapon has the <br /> Thrown property, the weapon returns to your <br /> hand immediately after hitting or missing a <br /> target. <br /> The spell ends early if you cast the spell again <br /> or die. When it ends, a conjured weapon <br /> disappears, or your bond with a magic weapon <br /> stops. <br /> <br /> <br /> [/spoiler]or [spoiler="Book of Shadows"]<br /> <br /> <br /> OF SHADOWS <br /> Conjuration Cantrip (Warlock) <br /> Casting Time: 1 hour <br /> Range: Self <br /> Component: V, S <br /> Duration: Instantaneous <br /> Stitching together strands of shadow, you <br /> conjure forth a book in your hand. The book <br /> contains eldritch magic that only you can access, <br /> granting you the following benefits: <br /> <strong>Cantrips and Rituals. </strong>When the book appears, <br /> choose two cantrips, and choose two 1st-level <br /> spells that have the Ritual tag. The spells can <br /> be from the Arcane, Divine, and Primal spell <br /> lists, and they must be spells you don’t already <br /> have prepared. While the book is on your <br /> person, you have the chosen spells prepared. <br /> <strong>Spellcasting Focus. </strong>You can use the book as a <br /> Spellcasting Focus. <br /> The book disappears if you cast this spell again <br /> or die. <br /> <strong>Cantrip Upgrade</strong>. When you reach 5th level as <br /> a Warlock, this spell also enhances other <br /> cantrips while the book is on your person; you <br /> can add your Warlock spellcasting ability <br /> modifier to the damage rolls of any cantrip you <br /> cast that doesn’t already have that modifier <br /> added to its damage roll. <br /> <br /> [/spoiler]<br /> Either of those are potentially very <em>worthy</em> of a dip for the right class<br /> <br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Int: Book of shadows (see above) or <br /> [spoiler="Pact Familiar"]<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> [*]PACT FAMILIAR <br /> Conjuration Cantrip (Warlock) <br /> Casting Time: 1 hour <br /> Range: 10 feet <br /> Component: V, S <br /> Duration: Instantaneous <br /> You summon an unearthly entity to serve you. It <br /> manifests in an unoccupied space of your choice <br /> within range. This creature uses the Pact <br /> Familiar stat block. If you already have a familiar <br /> from this spell, that familiar transforms into the <br /> new one but retains its memories; you don’t get <br /> a second Pact Familiar. <br /> Whenever you cast the spell, choose the <br /> familiar’s creature type: Aberration (flumph or <br /> knot of tentacles), Celestial (owl, raven, or other <br /> bird), Dragon (pseudodragon or similar <br /> dragonet), Fey (pixie or sprite), Fiend (imp or <br /> quasit), or Undead (shadow or skull). This choice <br /> affects the familiar’s default appearance, as <br /> noted in the parentheses, and it determines <br /> certain traits in its stat block. You can alter <br /> details of the creature’s appearance each time <br /> you summon it. <br /> <strong>Combat</strong>. The familiar is an ally to you and your <br /> companions, and it obeys you. In combat, it <br /> shares your Initiative count, but it takes its turn <br /> immediately after yours. On its turn, the familiar <br /> takes the Dodge action and uses its Move to <br /> avoid danger, unless you use your Reaction to <br /> command it to attack instead. <br /> Disappearance of the Familiar. The familiar <br /> disappears if it drops to 0 Hit Points, if you <br /> dismiss it as a Bonus Action, or if you die. When <br /> it disappears, it leaves behind anything it was <br /> wearing or carrying. If you cast this spell again, <br /> you decide whether you summon the familiar <br /> that disappeared or a different one. <br /> <strong> Remote Viewing.</strong> As a Magic action, you can <br /> see what your familiar sees and hear what it <br /> hears until the end of your next turn. <br /> <strong> Cantrip Upgrade. </strong>Starting when you reach 5th <br /> level as a Warlock, you can communicate <br /> telepathically with your familiar as long as you <br /> two are on the same plane of existence. <br /> Additionally, while perceiving through your <br /> familiar’s senses, you can also speak through <br /> your familiar in your own voice. <strong>the statblock doesn't copy/paste well so I'm not including it here</strong><br /> [/spoiler]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>cha</strong>: Pact familiar (or pact weapon (see above) </li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Always prepared without counting against your prep slot allotment: Burning hands & command spell</li> </ul><p>[/spoiler]</p><p>That is a very dip-worthy start but it's stuff that is probably in the right weight class for a two level dip on a pc who could have 18 more levels of some other class. The dip is not done though & that's where problems start to enter. On top of all that a warlock dip grants two invocation choices & some of those are very much above the weight class of a level 2 ability.</p><p>[spoiler="Invocation Options"]</p><p></p><p><strong>Prerequisite: None Invocations</strong>... A lot of these are targeted to "is this appropriate to a level 2 <em>warlock who <u>can't</u> swap out for an improved version later despite the ability to swap them at some points</em>" without enough consideration for "are two of these appropriate for a two level dip?" where the answer is often<em> no</em>. F/Ex: anything that grants a free spell is probably a little too good coming with cantrips four other prepped/always ready spells plus a free cast of one from two more always prepped spells once /long rest <em>and</em>one more invocation.</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Agonizing Blast</strong>: EB scales by warlock level, total nonissue. Great for no prereq invocation</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Armor of Shadows</strong>: free mage armor casting without needing to prep or use a slot.... We don't yet know what the new mage armor will be but even with the old one No this is probably a little too good coming with cantrips four other prepped/always ready spells plus a free cast of one from two more always prepped spells once /long rest <em>and</em> one more invocation.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Beast Speech</strong>: Speak with animals igot screwy somewhere along the line. Back in 2e & 3.x it used to say things [spoiler="like this"]<br /> although the spell doesn’t make them any more friendly or cooperative than normal. Furthermore, wary and cunning animals are likely to be terse and evasive, while the more stupid ones make inane comments. If an animal is friendly toward you, it may do some favor or service for you.<br /> while now it just outright says:<br /> he knowledge and awareness of many beasts is limited by their intelligence, but at minimum, <strong>beasts can give you information about nearby locations and monsters, including whatever they can perceive or have perceived within the past day</strong>[/spoiler] and it makes the GM look adversarial if the beast doesn't give good answers that lead to it being an <strong>unfun</strong> "ok lets go" solution</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Devil's Sight</strong>:"Is the VTT going to require five thousand dollar alienware laptops or can we use normal computers?" ->"is that a feature you would want?" Removing the ability to limit sight radius in dark & similar conditions is a great way to ensure that much larger areas need to be rendered... Also for setups using a shared screen on the table it results in everyone having 120ft of vision that ignores darkness. "it's meant to be creepy so the dim light uncanny valley iffy middleground is intended." doesn't solve any problems & is the result of such hair splitting levels of word mincing that it makes the GM look adversarial if they actually ever push that line. Just set this to level 4-5 or something if the 120ft needs to stay. Add darkvision or 60ft one for no prereq & let PC's going mostly warlock swap it later for this.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Eldritch Spear</strong>: Links to EB & EB only scales by <em>warlock</em> level now</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Eyes of the Runekeeper</strong>: If an ability forces the GM to write everything not written in common in the form of code or riddle it's probably too good for the dip</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Hexer</strong>: 600ft range on hex & advantage on con saves to maintain concentration. Not sure how I feel about this but it's probably fine</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Lesson's of the First Ones</strong>: Gain a first level <strong><u><em>feat</em></u></strong> of your choice?... no this is way too good for part of a dip on top of everything else the dip grants. It should absolutely have a higher prerequisite even if that results in feat+something else</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Mask of Many Faces</strong>: Disguise Self without expending spell slots?... this only gets better the higher level the PC with it gets. This should absolutely not be available at level 2</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Misty Visions</strong>: Cast Silent image without burning spell slots. cool, fits great for a very small part of a dip</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Repelling Blast</strong>: EB scales by warlock level, total nonissue. Great for no prereq invocation</li> </ul><p></p><p><strong>Non-Dip invocations</strong>:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Favor of the chain Master</strong>: This is really cool & I love almost all of them but <em>at will</em> charm & fear from fey/undead is almost certainly wayy too good</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Gaze of two Minds</strong>: This is a really awesome ability that adds nice reciprocity within the party for things like helpung the scout(rogue) scout/watching their back or being in the room with the face type to maybe call for help while they are away from the group for whatever reason.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Gift of the protectors</strong>: I like the idea behind this but the 1hp yoyohealing thing no longer needs to exist, maybe change the result to warlock level HP or something & make it feel less like it's abusing an exploit in reality?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lifedrinker: Kinda cool & the THP is nearly fitting with the sketchy arcane gish vibes</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Master of myriad forms: natural weapons & aquatic adaptation are almost never the reason anyone casts alter self. They cast it to move around like <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK_DVJ_5_VU" target="_blank">mystique</a> while confusing d&d for some kind of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike#:~:text=Roguelike%20(or%20rogue%2Dlike),death%20of%20the%20player%20character." target="_blank">roguelike</a> built to not leave every other player at the table in an <strong>unfun</strong> thumb twiddling state of background.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Mystic Arcanum</strong>: This is awesome for warlocks & high enough to not be just a small <em>part</em> of dip candy</li> </ul><p></p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p><em>Most </em>of those prereq NONE invocations on their own are trying to support wayyy above the weightclass of what a tier 1 (level 1-4) PC has the resource pool & durability to handle & that becomes problematic in a dip where the PC is bringing up to 18 levels of some other class - AND- a second pick from that list of invocations. If those invocations were split into a much weaker tier appropriate version with the existing version split off into a warlock 4-5 or whatever version, warlocks would be mostly unaffected because they can swap them at later levels but the problem of having two above weightclass abilities on top of everything else in the first spoiler in a dip would clear up.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 9007987, member: 93670"] Oh it's still very much dip-[I]worthy[/I], there may even ultimately be some great combos from doing so. Importantly though it's not dip-[I]primary[/I] design. With the fiend patron we have now a two level dip grants [spoiler="the following"] [LIST] [*][B]Two arcane list cantrip[/B]s. Barring combo specific synergies & possible changes to cantrips I'd imagine these to often be something like guidance & resistance [LIST] [*]Unexpectedly those are not on the current packet spell listings though so I wouldn't be surprised to see them get well deserved heavy reworking from the last version we had in the paladin & druid packet and-or moved to being class/archetype specific abilities. No matter what these are probably going to be the editions A & S tier arcane list cantrips, any cantrips that synergize (ie sun cleric+firebolt), or just another cantrip that might be useful ()ie message or whatever [/LIST] [*]1 caster level (ROUNDUP1/2+1/2) & access to first level arcane spells (ie [B]shield[/B]!) or 3 prepared arcane spells & two first level slots depending on if the other side of the warlock dip is a caster or not. [*][B]A pact boon[/B]: This will key off wis/cha/or int & carries extra benefits depending on choice. Since we are talking about dios & charop it's more useful to group those by attrib than their names, [LIST] [*][B]Wis[/B]: [spoiler="Pact weapon"] Conjuration Cantrip (Warlock) Casting Time: Action Range: Self Component: S Duration: 24 hours Tracing arcane sigils in the air, you conjure a Simple or Martial melee weapon of your choice in your outstretched hand, or you create a bond with a magic weapon you touch. The weapon you conjure or touch must lack the Heavy property, and the spell fails if you touch a magic item that is attuned to someone else. For the duration, the weapon grants you the following benefits: [B]Eldritch Warrior.[/B] When you attack with the weapon, you can use your spellcasting ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls, instead of using Strength or Dexterity. Proficiency. You have proficiency with the weapon. [B]Returning Weapon.[/B] If the weapon has the Thrown property, the weapon returns to your hand immediately after hitting or missing a target. The spell ends early if you cast the spell again or die. When it ends, a conjured weapon disappears, or your bond with a magic weapon stops. [/spoiler]or [spoiler="Book of Shadows"] OF SHADOWS Conjuration Cantrip (Warlock) Casting Time: 1 hour Range: Self Component: V, S Duration: Instantaneous Stitching together strands of shadow, you conjure forth a book in your hand. The book contains eldritch magic that only you can access, granting you the following benefits: [B]Cantrips and Rituals. [/B]When the book appears, choose two cantrips, and choose two 1st-level spells that have the Ritual tag. The spells can be from the Arcane, Divine, and Primal spell lists, and they must be spells you don’t already have prepared. While the book is on your person, you have the chosen spells prepared. [B]Spellcasting Focus. [/B]You can use the book as a Spellcasting Focus. The book disappears if you cast this spell again or die. [B]Cantrip Upgrade[/B]. When you reach 5th level as a Warlock, this spell also enhances other cantrips while the book is on your person; you can add your Warlock spellcasting ability modifier to the damage rolls of any cantrip you cast that doesn’t already have that modifier added to its damage roll. [/spoiler] Either of those are potentially very [I]worthy[/I] of a dip for the right class [*]Int: Book of shadows (see above) or [spoiler="Pact Familiar"] [*]PACT FAMILIAR Conjuration Cantrip (Warlock) Casting Time: 1 hour Range: 10 feet Component: V, S Duration: Instantaneous You summon an unearthly entity to serve you. It manifests in an unoccupied space of your choice within range. This creature uses the Pact Familiar stat block. If you already have a familiar from this spell, that familiar transforms into the new one but retains its memories; you don’t get a second Pact Familiar. Whenever you cast the spell, choose the familiar’s creature type: Aberration (flumph or knot of tentacles), Celestial (owl, raven, or other bird), Dragon (pseudodragon or similar dragonet), Fey (pixie or sprite), Fiend (imp or quasit), or Undead (shadow or skull). This choice affects the familiar’s default appearance, as noted in the parentheses, and it determines certain traits in its stat block. You can alter details of the creature’s appearance each time you summon it. [B]Combat[/B]. The familiar is an ally to you and your companions, and it obeys you. In combat, it shares your Initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. On its turn, the familiar takes the Dodge action and uses its Move to avoid danger, unless you use your Reaction to command it to attack instead. Disappearance of the Familiar. The familiar disappears if it drops to 0 Hit Points, if you dismiss it as a Bonus Action, or if you die. When it disappears, it leaves behind anything it was wearing or carrying. If you cast this spell again, you decide whether you summon the familiar that disappeared or a different one. [B] Remote Viewing.[/B] As a Magic action, you can see what your familiar sees and hear what it hears until the end of your next turn. [B] Cantrip Upgrade. [/B]Starting when you reach 5th level as a Warlock, you can communicate telepathically with your familiar as long as you two are on the same plane of existence. Additionally, while perceiving through your familiar’s senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice. [B]the statblock doesn't copy/paste well so I'm not including it here[/B] [/spoiler] [*][B]cha[/B]: Pact familiar (or pact weapon (see above) [/LIST] [*]Always prepared without counting against your prep slot allotment: Burning hands & command spell [/LIST] [/spoiler] That is a very dip-worthy start but it's stuff that is probably in the right weight class for a two level dip on a pc who could have 18 more levels of some other class. The dip is not done though & that's where problems start to enter. On top of all that a warlock dip grants two invocation choices & some of those are very much above the weight class of a level 2 ability. [spoiler="Invocation Options"] [B]Prerequisite: None Invocations[/B]... A lot of these are targeted to "is this appropriate to a level 2 [I]warlock who [U]can't[/U] swap out for an improved version later despite the ability to swap them at some points[/I]" without enough consideration for "are two of these appropriate for a two level dip?" where the answer is often[I] no[/I]. F/Ex: anything that grants a free spell is probably a little too good coming with cantrips four other prepped/always ready spells plus a free cast of one from two more always prepped spells once /long rest [I]and[/I]one more invocation. [LIST] [*][B]Agonizing Blast[/B]: EB scales by warlock level, total nonissue. Great for no prereq invocation [*][B]Armor of Shadows[/B]: free mage armor casting without needing to prep or use a slot.... We don't yet know what the new mage armor will be but even with the old one No this is probably a little too good coming with cantrips four other prepped/always ready spells plus a free cast of one from two more always prepped spells once /long rest [I]and[/I] one more invocation. [*][B]Beast Speech[/B]: Speak with animals igot screwy somewhere along the line. Back in 2e & 3.x it used to say things [spoiler="like this"] although the spell doesn’t make them any more friendly or cooperative than normal. Furthermore, wary and cunning animals are likely to be terse and evasive, while the more stupid ones make inane comments. If an animal is friendly toward you, it may do some favor or service for you. while now it just outright says: he knowledge and awareness of many beasts is limited by their intelligence, but at minimum, [B]beasts can give you information about nearby locations and monsters, including whatever they can perceive or have perceived within the past day[/B][/spoiler] and it makes the GM look adversarial if the beast doesn't give good answers that lead to it being an [B]unfun[/B] "ok lets go" solution [*][B]Devil's Sight[/B]:"Is the VTT going to require five thousand dollar alienware laptops or can we use normal computers?" ->"is that a feature you would want?" Removing the ability to limit sight radius in dark & similar conditions is a great way to ensure that much larger areas need to be rendered... Also for setups using a shared screen on the table it results in everyone having 120ft of vision that ignores darkness. "it's meant to be creepy so the dim light uncanny valley iffy middleground is intended." doesn't solve any problems & is the result of such hair splitting levels of word mincing that it makes the GM look adversarial if they actually ever push that line. Just set this to level 4-5 or something if the 120ft needs to stay. Add darkvision or 60ft one for no prereq & let PC's going mostly warlock swap it later for this. [*][B]Eldritch Spear[/B]: Links to EB & EB only scales by [I]warlock[/I] level now [*][B]Eyes of the Runekeeper[/B]: If an ability forces the GM to write everything not written in common in the form of code or riddle it's probably too good for the dip [*][B]Hexer[/B]: 600ft range on hex & advantage on con saves to maintain concentration. Not sure how I feel about this but it's probably fine [*][B]Lesson's of the First Ones[/B]: Gain a first level [B][U][I]feat[/I][/U][/B] of your choice?... no this is way too good for part of a dip on top of everything else the dip grants. It should absolutely have a higher prerequisite even if that results in feat+something else [*][B]Mask of Many Faces[/B]: Disguise Self without expending spell slots?... this only gets better the higher level the PC with it gets. This should absolutely not be available at level 2 [*][B]Misty Visions[/B]: Cast Silent image without burning spell slots. cool, fits great for a very small part of a dip [*][B]Repelling Blast[/B]: EB scales by warlock level, total nonissue. Great for no prereq invocation [/LIST] [B]Non-Dip invocations[/B]: [LIST] [*][B]Favor of the chain Master[/B]: This is really cool & I love almost all of them but [I]at will[/I] charm & fear from fey/undead is almost certainly wayy too good [*][B]Gaze of two Minds[/B]: This is a really awesome ability that adds nice reciprocity within the party for things like helpung the scout(rogue) scout/watching their back or being in the room with the face type to maybe call for help while they are away from the group for whatever reason. [*][B]Gift of the protectors[/B]: I like the idea behind this but the 1hp yoyohealing thing no longer needs to exist, maybe change the result to warlock level HP or something & make it feel less like it's abusing an exploit in reality? [*]Lifedrinker: Kinda cool & the THP is nearly fitting with the sketchy arcane gish vibes [*]Master of myriad forms: natural weapons & aquatic adaptation are almost never the reason anyone casts alter self. They cast it to move around like [URL='https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK_DVJ_5_VU']mystique[/URL] while confusing d&d for some kind of [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike#:~:text=Roguelike%20(or%20rogue%2Dlike),death%20of%20the%20player%20character.']roguelike[/URL] built to not leave every other player at the table in an [B]unfun[/B] thumb twiddling state of background. [*][B]Mystic Arcanum[/B]: This is awesome for warlocks & high enough to not be just a small [I]part[/I] of dip candy [/LIST] [/spoiler] [I]Most [/I]of those prereq NONE invocations on their own are trying to support wayyy above the weightclass of what a tier 1 (level 1-4) PC has the resource pool & durability to handle & that becomes problematic in a dip where the PC is bringing up to 18 levels of some other class - AND- a second pick from that list of invocations. If those invocations were split into a much weaker tier appropriate version with the existing version split off into a warlock 4-5 or whatever version, warlocks would be mostly unaffected because they can swap them at later levels but the problem of having two above weightclass abilities on top of everything else in the first spoiler in a dip would clear up. [/QUOTE]
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