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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8839255" data-attributes="member: 87792">You are suggesting changes to the game  - you want changes that will affect the wider D&D community.In short you literally want to remove them as classes from the game. You want to remove what people like and play from the game and utterly shred the class variety of the most popular spellcasting class because your tiny group differs from the mainstream.So thank you for proving my point.And maybe you should realise that you shouldn't suggest changes to D&D as a whole based on your atypical group.If I were to have my way then I'd demote wizard to a subclass of sorcerer that uses intelligence for spellcasting - the sorcerers that gain their spells from the study of books.It represents a lot more of it than your table.No one said it didn't. However it is just a small minority (as seen by the explosive growth of D&D in recent years).Meanwhile the wizard is a long rest class with arcane spells that it prepares. It is utterly redundant in a game that also has sorcerers, clerics, full caster bards, and warlocks.If we're taking classes out for being meh, take the redundant ones out first. Ditch the wizard. You might not personally like invocations - but people do and no other class has them. You might find the patrons very meh - but no other class has something that comes close. And the wizard subclasses ("I'm a book caster who's slightly better at a few spells") might be better than the pre-4e wizard subclasses (I can cast extra spells but they are exactly the same spells as any other wizard other than the ones I can't cast) but are still all boring.But instead what you want downgraded from the status of a full class is simultaneously:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The most popular spellcasting class according to the best data we have available</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The single class with the most interesting levelling experience</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The single class with the most mechanically varied characters (thanks to the Invocations and the Pact Boon)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The class that works least like the other classes (the only short rest spellcasting class)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Probably the spellcasting class with the greatest variety in their subclasses</li> </ul>And somehow you want to downgrade this into a subclass.</blockquote>

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