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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8839367" data-attributes="member: 87792">You literally said in so many words "Frankly, I would rather just remove both Warlocks and Sorcerers from the game, but they work well as the subclasses of Clerics and Wizards, so that is a happy compromise. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />"If you mean you'd rather remove them from your games rather from the game meaning D&D as a wider thing then say that. Make your posts more clearly.And you're talking about things I didn't say. Experienced players who also play 5e are a part of the wider 5e communityYou need no classes in D&D and can go entirely classless. I don't know why you'd want to homogenise D&D and run everything through a blender destroying one of its main advantages over other games, in having a strong class system.Except they aren't. The Warlock in particular is an entire package - based on spells, pacts, pact boons, and invocations. All working together.In short wizards are the most basic spellcasters and the most generic spellcasters. And according to you they don't need subclasses because if they have subclasses then they simply aren't the best overall spellcasters, they are the best spellcasters in their area. Outside their school (and even inside in some cases) they aren't even the best with any given spell as the sorcerer can just add metamagic to the same spell.And if you want to make something into the best generalist spellcaster then that's a gimmick. And it would make perfect and complete sense to make it a gimmick of sorcerer - the sorcerers who can learn an unlimited number of spells but only prepare a few at a time. So which is it?To me the answer is simple. Wizards are the most flexible spellcasters and can change up their spells. And there s no good reason other than history that this can't be a sorcerer subclass. With the exception of the Bladesinger (which is OP) the wizard subclasses are thin and watery, with the lowlight being that the necromancer that's basically better with only a single spell.I'm not disagreeing that over half the invocations could be removed and no one would miss a thing. One of the things I hope 5e does is gives them the boot. (In particular more than a quarter of spells in the PHB say "You can cast [a single spell] once using a warlock spell slot. You can't do so again until you finish a long rest." and are absolutely worthless and I don't know who thought anyone would give up an invocation to cast Mage Armour on themselves when warlocks are proficient in light armour). I'm honestly surprised I've never seen anyone cast Gaze of Two Minds.Of the 14 invocations in Xanathar's all require either a pact boon or at least 5th level (some need higher) or Eldritch Blast. There's only one I've not heard anyone at least consider on a character of the right level (and that's not because Cloud of Flies is weak) and in Tasha's only one's a first level (and advantage on concentration checks is worth swiping) while half are Talisman-specific. No one looks at the 1/day Animate Dead.But really the problem here is that PHB Invocations have about the hit rate of feats or spells. There are, I think, 14 allowed Invocations in the PHB at level 2 - of which six are obvious trash, three being replacable by a ritual, one by studded leather, one a spell slot, and one is weaker than the skilled feat, and three (plus two in Xanathar's) boost Eldritch Blast and all are taken by people always starting with Agonizing Blast. Of the remainder I haven't seen Gaze Of Two Minds for some unknown reason. But Fiendish Vigour isn't unknown and Devil's Sight, Misty Visions, and Mire the Mind are al IME pretty common. And I've even seen both Eyes of the Rune Keeper and Eldritch Sight even if both can be replaced by rituals.So yes there are some reasons you see the same invocations all the time. There just aren't that many of them at low level that aren't obviously bad. And from what I can tell the majority of them that open up at higher level are tied to the pact boons. It's still better than literally any other class even if there should be more.What was I supposed to do? Laugh?When you say you something should be removed from the game that means for the wider community - the "the" is a definite article with the implications that it's only one. If you mean from your game then say that.</blockquote>

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