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Message: <blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 4912846" data-attributes="member: 35909">Warlock is certainly pretty good compared to the noncasters, sure.  I think you underestimate what a good archer can dish out on a full attack, though.  A warlock generally can't compete with it.  And archers are pretty weak, too!  Compared to casters...warlocks a quite weak, especially by the level of your game.Not "Eldritch blast may not be as powerful in one round as some arcane spells," EB will almost NEVER be as powerful as ANY spell a spellcaster will cast.  The most common evocations will be doing d6/level to an area, instead of d6/2 levels (roughly, a little worse, actually) to one target.And the Warlock can't pick up Evard's until a few levels after the wizard can (level 7).  The spell's grapple mod is very strong at the earliest levels, but IME it does not advance in bonus fast enough to compete with a lot of big monsters and full BAB warriors as you rise in level.  Str 18, large, and effectively full BAB (uses your CL) is amazing at level 7.  At level 12?  You're likely fighting lots of large or larger enemies, and the party fighter surely has more than 18 str.  By level 15+, the evards will likely have less than 50% chance to grapple the big monsters and fighter types.  Rogues will have about as good a chance with escape artist.  And casters will just teleport out (if arcane) or have freedom of movement pre-buffed on already anyway (if divine).  Besides that, a normal caster can throw down many more varied battlefield control spells and debuffs with his spell slots.  The warlock just has the evard's trick.Touch attacks: the same can be said for wizards and sorcs.  Also, the warlock really wouldn't be able to hit very often if they weren't touch attacks.  He only gets medium BAB, and won't be attacking flatfooted AC frequently (like the rogue) and can't really rely on buffs to attack bonus unless the party provides them (unlike bard and cleric, who can self-buff, and druids, who can just decide to be a str 30 bear).  They also typically only get the one attack per round.  3/day with a feat they can get 2 attacks per round (Quicken SLA).Item creation: Yes, this combined with the take 10 on UMD is probably their best class feature, actually.  That said, they don't get any bonus feats to help gain those item creation feats like a wizard, and if played up to level 12 (instead of starting there) are unlikely to invest feats towards something they can't yet make use of at all.  So the warlock will either be very limited in what he can make by feats or he will "waste" earlier feats and wait for the benefit, being weaker for it until then.  Finally, item creation power level is completely in the DM's hands.  You need downtime to craft.  As the DM, you can control how much downtime the party gets...I understand you were just saying Warlocks aren't bad, and they aren't.  But they're also not quite as amazing as you assert when compared to what a real caster could do.  Which is fine, since casters are overpowered by level 12 typically.</blockquote>

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