Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Million Dollar TTRPG Crowdfunders
Most Anticipated Tabletop RPGs Of The Year
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Warlocks' patrons vs. Paladin Oaths and Cleric Deities
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9859083" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>Yes 5e goes wayyy out of its way to ensure that PCs don't actually need anything</p><p>~34:30 https://twitter.co,.com/ChrisPerkinsDnD/status/850183402808463365</p><p>the earlier <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/warlocks-patrons-vs-paladin-oaths-and-cleric-deities.717953/post-9858908" target="_blank">post19 warlock specific tweets</a></p><p>The ramifications of that design choice to ensure players don't need anything from the GM's world come up with the warlock/paladin/cleric classes, a few times in <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/true-neutral-bunk-or-hogwash.717888/" target="_blank">the TN/alignment thread</a>, & it even extends to the<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dz65h6H5gM&t=174s" target="_blank"> god awful designed </a>- <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmD0ZCDuozk" target="_blank">rest mechanics</a>.</p><p></p><p></p><p>agreed 100%. Unfortunately someone was so excited to push their Sam & Dean Winchester/Crowley or Constantine/lucifer fanfic that they moved the needle wayyyyyyyy beyond the point where the player had any reason to care & the GM was <em>effectively </em>unable to have the power granting entity/force push back after having a stern look ignored</p><p></p><p>That bold bit is where RAW and it's associated fluff matters to an absolutely critical degree. With 5e, the Overton-window equivalent shifted so far that should the GM have anything in that world they supposedly master push back when a player takes actions as if their PC doesn't care or the player themselves simply responds to a stern look from the powers that be by simply calling the GM's "master of worlds" bluff by completely ignoring it. At that point the GM can either ignore it & continue as is or pull one of</p><p>[spoiler="These Levers"]</p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheGMIsACheatingBastard[/URL]</p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillerGameMaster[/URL]</p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Railroading[/URL]</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p>Simply declaring the GM to be a master of worlds has no value when discussing areas of the game where the rules lore & fluff were designed to ensure the GM lacks enough authority to keep metaphorical soft power stern looks credible</p><p><em>All </em>of those are choices that poison the social contract & doom a campaign.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 9859083, member: 93670"] Yes 5e goes wayyy out of its way to ensure that PCs don't actually need anything ~34:30 https://twitter.co,.com/ChrisPerkinsDnD/status/850183402808463365 the earlier [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/warlocks-patrons-vs-paladin-oaths-and-cleric-deities.717953/post-9858908']post19 warlock specific tweets[/URL] The ramifications of that design choice to ensure players don't need anything from the GM's world come up with the warlock/paladin/cleric classes, a few times in [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/true-neutral-bunk-or-hogwash.717888/']the TN/alignment thread[/URL], & it even extends to the[URL='https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dz65h6H5gM&t=174s'] god awful designed [/URL]- [URL='https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmD0ZCDuozk']rest mechanics[/URL]. agreed 100%. Unfortunately someone was so excited to push their Sam & Dean Winchester/Crowley or Constantine/lucifer fanfic that they moved the needle wayyyyyyyy beyond the point where the player had any reason to care & the GM was [I]effectively [/I]unable to have the power granting entity/force push back after having a stern look ignored That bold bit is where RAW and it's associated fluff matters to an absolutely critical degree. With 5e, the Overton-window equivalent shifted so far that should the GM have anything in that world they supposedly master push back when a player takes actions as if their PC doesn't care or the player themselves simply responds to a stern look from the powers that be by simply calling the GM's "master of worlds" bluff by completely ignoring it. At that point the GM can either ignore it & continue as is or pull one of [spoiler="These Levers"] [URL unfurl="true"]https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheGMIsACheatingBastard[/URL] [URL unfurl="true"]https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillerGameMaster[/URL] [URL unfurl="true"]https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Railroading[/URL] [/spoiler] Simply declaring the GM to be a master of worlds has no value when discussing areas of the game where the rules lore & fluff were designed to ensure the GM lacks enough authority to keep metaphorical soft power stern looks credible [I]All [/I]of those are choices that poison the social contract & doom a campaign. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Warlocks' patrons vs. Paladin Oaths and Cleric Deities
Top