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<blockquote data-quote="Saeviomagy" data-source="post: 6695746" data-attributes="member: 5890"><p>The answer is "no more than I could reliably stabilize someone suffering from a potentially fatal wound."</p><p>That goes double in the middle of a combat.</p><p></p><p>One of the two diseases listed in the DMG is treatable with a rare flower processed by a herbalism kit. So there's some precedent for non-magical treatment of disease. It's just so patchy it's like disease in general was an afterthought, and the overlap between healer's kits, the medicine skill and herbalism skill is just wierd, which is what you expect from an afterthought.</p><p></p><p>I think we're talking at cross purposes here - my point is that new battlemaster maneuvers could be created that could fill these niches (ie - "Coordinated targetting - spend a superiority die to negate disadvantage for one ally/advantage against one ally as long as you are not suffering from the same effect, duration:concentration or 1 minute"). Not as effective as curing the condition, but possibly broader in application.</p><p></p><p>Bringing people back from near death is such a mundane event that a large number of public sites have a machine that will allow a layperson to do it. This isn't fantasy.</p><p>Letting a non-magical individual do it in a fantasy game is not that big of a stretch.</p><p></p><p>I don't give a crap about 'stepping on toes', especially since I'm arguing with someone who's saying I'm in a completely nonmagical party. You might be right about the free version of an expensive spell - but that's a balancing issue, not a fundamental flaw with the idea.</p><p></p><p>If we stick to revivify, it's a minute. And people die because in combat healing cannot keep up with in combat damage.</p><p></p><p>You missed break enchantment, which was the "everyone can potentially get rid of almost anything of 5th level or lower" spell available to almost everyone. Disease and poison were treatable by skill checks, fear is a temporary thing anyway (and would be well within the bailiwick of mundane dispelling I would think).</p><p></p><p>No, I'd much rather see other wizardly abilities to mitigate party damage. Hello Mr abjuration specialist! I think stone to flesh is a perfect example, especially since it used to come free with learning flesh to stone, and like you point out had some interesting utility uses. I seem to remember at one stage false life didn't have a self-only target too? I could be wrong of course...</p><p></p><p>Teamwork isn't a curse word. And the fighter should be relying on the entire party for damage mitigation - otherwise every monster in the fight is targeting one guy, and he's not getting any healing...</p><p></p><p>Which is sort of my point - it shouldn't be that way, and it really doesn't have to be unless you're unwilling to say that in a world where we have examples of non-magical fantastical things, that anything a martial character does cannot be fantastic.</p><p></p><p>Not sure what your trailing off sentence was, but allowing extra attempts to 'shake it off' seems on a par with hoping that the cleric has prepared the right spell today.</p><p>"Shake it off - as an action you may spend a superiority die to allow an ally to reattempt a save against a condition or effect that currently affects them. They may add the superiority die to their save result. The save is against the original DC of the effect."</p><p></p><p>Personally I would rather create a viable party. I think that does include getting unconscious people back on their feet, and I see that as being something that should be possible without magic.</p><p></p><p>Further, I think that with an expanded maneuvers system, the battlemaster is the class to do it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Saeviomagy, post: 6695746, member: 5890"] The answer is "no more than I could reliably stabilize someone suffering from a potentially fatal wound." That goes double in the middle of a combat. One of the two diseases listed in the DMG is treatable with a rare flower processed by a herbalism kit. So there's some precedent for non-magical treatment of disease. It's just so patchy it's like disease in general was an afterthought, and the overlap between healer's kits, the medicine skill and herbalism skill is just wierd, which is what you expect from an afterthought. I think we're talking at cross purposes here - my point is that new battlemaster maneuvers could be created that could fill these niches (ie - "Coordinated targetting - spend a superiority die to negate disadvantage for one ally/advantage against one ally as long as you are not suffering from the same effect, duration:concentration or 1 minute"). Not as effective as curing the condition, but possibly broader in application. Bringing people back from near death is such a mundane event that a large number of public sites have a machine that will allow a layperson to do it. This isn't fantasy. Letting a non-magical individual do it in a fantasy game is not that big of a stretch. I don't give a crap about 'stepping on toes', especially since I'm arguing with someone who's saying I'm in a completely nonmagical party. You might be right about the free version of an expensive spell - but that's a balancing issue, not a fundamental flaw with the idea. If we stick to revivify, it's a minute. And people die because in combat healing cannot keep up with in combat damage. You missed break enchantment, which was the "everyone can potentially get rid of almost anything of 5th level or lower" spell available to almost everyone. Disease and poison were treatable by skill checks, fear is a temporary thing anyway (and would be well within the bailiwick of mundane dispelling I would think). No, I'd much rather see other wizardly abilities to mitigate party damage. Hello Mr abjuration specialist! I think stone to flesh is a perfect example, especially since it used to come free with learning flesh to stone, and like you point out had some interesting utility uses. I seem to remember at one stage false life didn't have a self-only target too? I could be wrong of course... Teamwork isn't a curse word. And the fighter should be relying on the entire party for damage mitigation - otherwise every monster in the fight is targeting one guy, and he's not getting any healing... Which is sort of my point - it shouldn't be that way, and it really doesn't have to be unless you're unwilling to say that in a world where we have examples of non-magical fantastical things, that anything a martial character does cannot be fantastic. Not sure what your trailing off sentence was, but allowing extra attempts to 'shake it off' seems on a par with hoping that the cleric has prepared the right spell today. "Shake it off - as an action you may spend a superiority die to allow an ally to reattempt a save against a condition or effect that currently affects them. They may add the superiority die to their save result. The save is against the original DC of the effect." Personally I would rather create a viable party. I think that does include getting unconscious people back on their feet, and I see that as being something that should be possible without magic. Further, I think that with an expanded maneuvers system, the battlemaster is the class to do it. [/QUOTE]
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