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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6659885" data-attributes="member: 996"> It'd be the line between Class and Background.  He is a Thief (Class) who was a Wizard's Apprentice (Background)  IDK, I read the stories a long time ago, the one that stuck with me was grounding out spell attacks with a wire.  At the time, a character like The Grey Mouser was unusual, because he did have a little knowledge of magic and used that knowledge to foil magic, even though he was, primarily, a sneak-thief & master swordsman, while most heroes in the genre didn't use magic, only faced magic-using enemies.  An 'exception that proves the rule,' is probably how  [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] meant the reference.  Grey Mouser was as close as you'd get to a magic-using hero in the genre, and he was still primarily martial.I've never heard what Lieber's friend (whose name I don't recall, atm) had in mind with the Grey Mouser, or why he'd stray from the usual S&S conventions (S&S and 'low fantasy' sub-genres were really established by REH, and Conan all but defined the S&S sub-genre).   But, I have heard what Moorcock was thinking with Elric:  He's said that he meant Elric as an inversion of the S&S formula.  Where Conan is a Barbarian, Elric is a decadent Melnibonean prince, where Conan is superhumanly strong and vital, Elric is a feeble albino, where Conan was hardly even superstitious, Elric is a Sorcerer, where Conan went through weapons faster than he changed shirts and killed with his bare hands, Elric was utterly dependent on Stormbringer, where Conan was rarely rescued by an ally or even author-force coincidence, Elric routinely invoked Arioch as a deus-ex-machina.  So it can serve to illustrate S&S, in that it's a 180-degree opposite of S&S tropes, down the line.  I suspect something similar, but less extreme, was going on with the Grey Mouser, not to turn S&S completely on it's head, but perhaps simply  to provide a contrast to Fafhrd.  ...But D&D never has done S&S that well, whether you look at the core or the fringes of the sub-genre.  Part of it is the over-emphasis (and dependence) on PC casters and PC magic items.  Part of it is also the party dynamic, since S&S tends to be more lone heroes, partners, or, at most, a few temporary supporting characters hanging around the hero.The former is the more serious mechanical problem.  In classic D&D, dependence on casters' magical healing was profound, magic items weren't dependable alternatives, and natural healing was glacial (though still with unrealistically positive outcomes considering medieval medical care).  In 3e, cheap wands and potions could take the place of caster healing (freeing up such casters to become CoDzillas).  In 5e, though, overnight healing and hour-rest HD healing makes 'natural' recovery more nearly practical as an alternative, though magic (casters or 'common' potions) are still critically needed in combat, while in 4e, in addition to overnight healing & 5-min rest surges, Warlords 'inspire' back hps in combat as dependably as other 'leaders,' like the classic Cleric.The latter is a party-composition issue. There are 4 iconic classes, variously expresses as Fighter, Cleric, Magic-user & Thief, or class-groups, Warrior, Priest, Wizard, & Rogue, respectively, or formal Roles, Defender, Leader, Controller & Striker, respectively.  There's only so much a lone martial character can do, and only so many such options to fill out the party.  In classic D&D you had Fighter's, Thieves, & Assassins, and, eventually, Barbarians & Cavaliers (2 of 4 iconic).  In 3e, Fighters (which, really, represented myriad build possibilities), Rogues, & Barbarians, plus the late addition of the Knight and Scout and, under the wire, the Bo9S (3 of 4, lacking only Cleric/Leader).  In 4e, you had two builds each of Fighter, Ranger, Rogue and Warlord, covering 3 of 4 roles, with 4 more builds of each in Martial Power books, and the late addition of the Slayer, Knight, & Thief (the Scout, Hunter, and Berserker being part-Primal),  (3 of 4, lacking only controller).  In 5e, all classes use magic, but a few sub-classes:  Berserker, Champion, Battlemaster, Thief & Assassin, do not (2 of 4).So, to build a bare-minimum party for use in the S&S genre, all editions of D&D fail for want of a completely functional martial party, and most fail due to magic-healing dependency.</blockquote>

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