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[Warlords] Should D&D be tied to D&D Worlds?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6144009" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>This I can sympathise with. As [MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] on the other hand can't tell the difference between allowing someone to use a healing surge and the Cure Light Wounds spell, or the Cure Light Wounds spell and the Regrowth spell (or he wouldn't be making blatant edition warrior cracks about shouting hands back on) I'm not expecting much.</p><p></p><p>But there's a damn good reason the Warlord is treated as the standard bearer of 4e. It is the class that enables you to be able to do without the cleric. Which means it, more than any other, is the class that pushes 4e into terrain that no other version of D&D can readily go. And a second reason it's treated as a standard bearer. [MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] decided to edition war directly against it - and it's far, far less peripheral to 4e than the gnome.</p><p></p><p>And if you want to comment that Mearls had a lot of contributions to 4e, he did. But the quality of them is a matter for another thread. (Suffice to say that other than direct PHBs, every single 4e books I have that I actively warn people away from has Mearls' name on the cover).</p><p></p><p>The warlord opened up both viable worlds and viable group playstyles that didn't feel as if they were lacking simply because they were lacking a spellcaster. Neither the paladin, the barbarian, the rogue, nor the warden (subclass of Paladin?!?) changes the group dynamic nor opens up entire worlds for viable adventuring. None of them change the metagame (although the Supplement 1 Greyhawk thief did) and none significantly change the range of settings you can use without the game clunking.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed. If there is an option that lets either a fighter or a rogue get some ability to bring people into the fight and to keep people going past their normal limits, that will probably work. But it needs to be</p><p>1: Non-magical</p><p>2: Reactive</p><p>3: Effectively restoring hit points available to use.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The easiest way to make that a table decision is to make the class. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is a genuine point. Can we now wrap up the Paladin into the fighter? And the sorceror into the wizard?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except for the ones that change the metagame. Actually it might be quite interesting if the fighter can spend their bonus dice to heal someone that many hit points.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Huh? Who says the boundaries can't be fuzzy?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We will know that the game is designed not to need a panic button <em>when they get rid of the cleric class as we know it.</em> Are clerics still walking round with a panic button? Yes? Then they haven't got rid of it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You've shown me that such an approach is possible if you design it in from the ground up. I already knew that. <em>Which is why the first half of my OP was about Clerics, the lineage, and the effect on gameplay.</em> Not one of your suggestions I've seen has interacted with the fact that the cleric is there. You can tell me that Guild Wars has no healing. Fine. Guild Wars has no cleric and was built with that assumption. 4e also has no healing <em>required</em> - all classes get Second Wind and the ability to trigger each others' second winds. And healing surges in rests (something Next has shredded). </p><p></p><p>But have you seen the difference between a 4e party with no healers and one which can bring people back off the ground and into the fight? It's vast. Which is why <em>as long as the Cleric gets healing and remains in the core four classes</em> arguments that "we could do things without healing" fall IMO utterly flat.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If I counted all the times 4e PCs had used Second Wind in combat. Warlords in 4e don't have a monopoly on that. What they do is <em>allow others to use second wind</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's because Wolverine regenerates, Hulk is effectively immune to physical damage, and Batman's role in the JLA is that of Tactical Warlord.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>He does on Spider-man. And even called out on Nick Fury and the Howling Commandoes. And Cyclops does (or did) on the X-Men.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Healing isn't the only part of the Warlord. In fact of the 4e leader classes Warlords are the flat out worst at restoring HP. But they can do it. And that's the point. A 4e Warlord can pick someone up off their feet and get them back into the fight. A Pacifist Cleric might be able to negate all incoming damage to someone for a while - no Warlord you can build is anywhere near that good. And it's not unknown for a Warlord to have no more hit point restoration than their two Inspiring Words. I.e. effectively a minor class feature. But it's enough.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And clearly no one <em>ever </em>wants to use D&D rules to play in any settings that aren't D&D ones.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6144009, member: 87792"] This I can sympathise with. As [MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] on the other hand can't tell the difference between allowing someone to use a healing surge and the Cure Light Wounds spell, or the Cure Light Wounds spell and the Regrowth spell (or he wouldn't be making blatant edition warrior cracks about shouting hands back on) I'm not expecting much. But there's a damn good reason the Warlord is treated as the standard bearer of 4e. It is the class that enables you to be able to do without the cleric. Which means it, more than any other, is the class that pushes 4e into terrain that no other version of D&D can readily go. And a second reason it's treated as a standard bearer. [MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] decided to edition war directly against it - and it's far, far less peripheral to 4e than the gnome. And if you want to comment that Mearls had a lot of contributions to 4e, he did. But the quality of them is a matter for another thread. (Suffice to say that other than direct PHBs, every single 4e books I have that I actively warn people away from has Mearls' name on the cover). The warlord opened up both viable worlds and viable group playstyles that didn't feel as if they were lacking simply because they were lacking a spellcaster. Neither the paladin, the barbarian, the rogue, nor the warden (subclass of Paladin?!?) changes the group dynamic nor opens up entire worlds for viable adventuring. None of them change the metagame (although the Supplement 1 Greyhawk thief did) and none significantly change the range of settings you can use without the game clunking. Agreed. If there is an option that lets either a fighter or a rogue get some ability to bring people into the fight and to keep people going past their normal limits, that will probably work. But it needs to be 1: Non-magical 2: Reactive 3: Effectively restoring hit points available to use. The easiest way to make that a table decision is to make the class. This is a genuine point. Can we now wrap up the Paladin into the fighter? And the sorceror into the wizard? Except for the ones that change the metagame. Actually it might be quite interesting if the fighter can spend their bonus dice to heal someone that many hit points. Huh? Who says the boundaries can't be fuzzy? We will know that the game is designed not to need a panic button [I]when they get rid of the cleric class as we know it.[/I] Are clerics still walking round with a panic button? Yes? Then they haven't got rid of it. You've shown me that such an approach is possible if you design it in from the ground up. I already knew that. [I]Which is why the first half of my OP was about Clerics, the lineage, and the effect on gameplay.[/I] Not one of your suggestions I've seen has interacted with the fact that the cleric is there. You can tell me that Guild Wars has no healing. Fine. Guild Wars has no cleric and was built with that assumption. 4e also has no healing [I]required[/I] - all classes get Second Wind and the ability to trigger each others' second winds. And healing surges in rests (something Next has shredded). But have you seen the difference between a 4e party with no healers and one which can bring people back off the ground and into the fight? It's vast. Which is why [I]as long as the Cleric gets healing and remains in the core four classes[/I] arguments that "we could do things without healing" fall IMO utterly flat. If I counted all the times 4e PCs had used Second Wind in combat. Warlords in 4e don't have a monopoly on that. What they do is [I]allow others to use second wind[/I]. That's because Wolverine regenerates, Hulk is effectively immune to physical damage, and Batman's role in the JLA is that of Tactical Warlord. He does on Spider-man. And even called out on Nick Fury and the Howling Commandoes. And Cyclops does (or did) on the X-Men. Healing isn't the only part of the Warlord. In fact of the 4e leader classes Warlords are the flat out worst at restoring HP. But they can do it. And that's the point. A 4e Warlord can pick someone up off their feet and get them back into the fight. A Pacifist Cleric might be able to negate all incoming damage to someone for a while - no Warlord you can build is anywhere near that good. And it's not unknown for a Warlord to have no more hit point restoration than their two Inspiring Words. I.e. effectively a minor class feature. But it's enough. And clearly no one [I]ever [/I]wants to use D&D rules to play in any settings that aren't D&D ones. [/QUOTE]
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