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[Warlords] Should D&D be tied to D&D Worlds?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6144208" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>In which case I'd like to see this actually in the Next playtest. Implementation is everything.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>First, I do not consider KM to be a 4e fan. He might play it - but I do not believe I have <em>ever</em> seen him post anything positive on it on these boards. He's also at least twice posted lists of complaints about 4e that are simply, factually wrong. On one occasion he's been called on them and promptly blamed the game because he was getting it wrong, as was his local metagame.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The problem is that it can't in Next. Or under KM's approaches. And it ought to be able to.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. I'm saying that <em>it doesn't have the metagame and tactical utility.</em> A healer who can only heal when you are winning and have scored a triumph is a hell of a lot less useful than one who heals when there is trouble. A very different issue.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Let's look at Mearls record with respect to the Warlord.</p><p></p><p>1: Mearls has gone on record making jokes about shouting hands back on (never mind that it's not anything you can do with Cure X Wounds either).</p><p>2: When Mearls was in charge of 4e he produced the Essentials line. Which contained an analog of every 4e PHB class <em>except the Warlord</em>. And Essentials never produced a warlord - a not-inconspicuous gap.</p><p>3: <a href="http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29800035/For_the_Record:_Mearls_on_Warlords" target="_blank">He continually talks disparagingly about the way the Warlord operated and its so-called healing abilities</a>. And claims that it should be under the Fighter and Bard aegis.</p><p></p><p><strong>Thompson</strong>: William Wallace clearly went and inspired the guy who got his hand cut off to keep fighting. There's that--</p><p><strong>Mearls</strong>: But his hand didn't grow back. (laughter) Now I'm being a little ridiculous. </p><p></p><p>And then justifies why the Warlord shouldn't inspire people to fight longer, just harder on Twitter.</p><p></p><p><strong>Mearls:</strong> "<a href="https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/309480330723749888" target="_blank">Should a master strategist heal?</a>"</p><p></p><p>How much more evidence do you want? It's not proof. But it's certainly evidence.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Go back and read my initial post. Spike healing is <em>vastly</em> tactically superior to any other form of tactical healing. You also asked what the Warlord should have that the current next Fighter doesn't. I have told you. Now you are trying to come up with reasons that one of the key aspects of the Warlord should not be. In short you are trying to tell me that the Warlord shouldn't be in Next. You asked a question. I have answered it.</p><p></p><p>Without a panic button and spike healing it is not a Warlord. This answers your initial question that lead to this thread. And spike healing is the <em>only</em> way small doses of healing are particularly useful - it's the equivalent of focus fire being a force multiplier.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So your argument of why Warlords shouldn't get spike healing boils down to "There are other possibilities". Spike reactive healing is the one that should most be attached to morale and to tacticians.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Mind walking me through how WotC has shown this rather than merely floated it as an idea? I haven't noticed it in the playtest. Implementation matters. And spike healing, inspiration when things look blackest and reinforcements at their most desperate are the sort that should be the domain of the Warlord far more than e.g. the Cleric.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Feat chains I'd argue are bad design. And a class is the <em>single</em> most removable way of putting such things in to the game.</p><p></p><p>Also why should the default for hit points be the one that is explicitely against the 1e and 4e rules and not actually supported by any other edition? This part has confused me if we're meant to be uniting editions. The default is the opposite to the only explicit way of handling hit points?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because the problem I'm trying to solve is the one of needing godbotherers and healbots. And anything that has none of the problems of clerics is going to have problems of its own.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That doesn't mean that hit point recovery is not a part of the <em>emergent playstyle </em>of the warlord. Without spike hit point recovery it will not be a warlord. And without Mearls going out of his way to mock the Warlord in an official podcast I'd have a lot more faith.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Depends how you make the warlord. I know plenty of 4e players who haven't enjoyed clerics ever but happily play warlords. Hell, I'm one of them. Because the Bravura Warlord comes with an awesome playstyle. The warlord comes with only some of the cleric problems. And I will be amazed if removing clerics is on the cards.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6144208, member: 87792"] In which case I'd like to see this actually in the Next playtest. Implementation is everything. First, I do not consider KM to be a 4e fan. He might play it - but I do not believe I have [I]ever[/I] seen him post anything positive on it on these boards. He's also at least twice posted lists of complaints about 4e that are simply, factually wrong. On one occasion he's been called on them and promptly blamed the game because he was getting it wrong, as was his local metagame. The problem is that it can't in Next. Or under KM's approaches. And it ought to be able to. I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. I'm saying that [I]it doesn't have the metagame and tactical utility.[/I] A healer who can only heal when you are winning and have scored a triumph is a hell of a lot less useful than one who heals when there is trouble. A very different issue. Let's look at Mearls record with respect to the Warlord. 1: Mearls has gone on record making jokes about shouting hands back on (never mind that it's not anything you can do with Cure X Wounds either). 2: When Mearls was in charge of 4e he produced the Essentials line. Which contained an analog of every 4e PHB class [I]except the Warlord[/I]. And Essentials never produced a warlord - a not-inconspicuous gap. 3: [URL="http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29800035/For_the_Record:_Mearls_on_Warlords"]He continually talks disparagingly about the way the Warlord operated and its so-called healing abilities[/URL]. And claims that it should be under the Fighter and Bard aegis. [B]Thompson[/B]: William Wallace clearly went and inspired the guy who got his hand cut off to keep fighting. There's that-- [B]Mearls[/B]: But his hand didn't grow back. (laughter) Now I'm being a little ridiculous. And then justifies why the Warlord shouldn't inspire people to fight longer, just harder on Twitter. [B]Mearls:[/B] "[URL="https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/309480330723749888"]Should a master strategist heal?[/URL]" How much more evidence do you want? It's not proof. But it's certainly evidence. Go back and read my initial post. Spike healing is [I]vastly[/I] tactically superior to any other form of tactical healing. You also asked what the Warlord should have that the current next Fighter doesn't. I have told you. Now you are trying to come up with reasons that one of the key aspects of the Warlord should not be. In short you are trying to tell me that the Warlord shouldn't be in Next. You asked a question. I have answered it. Without a panic button and spike healing it is not a Warlord. This answers your initial question that lead to this thread. And spike healing is the [I]only[/I] way small doses of healing are particularly useful - it's the equivalent of focus fire being a force multiplier. So your argument of why Warlords shouldn't get spike healing boils down to "There are other possibilities". Spike reactive healing is the one that should most be attached to morale and to tacticians. Mind walking me through how WotC has shown this rather than merely floated it as an idea? I haven't noticed it in the playtest. Implementation matters. And spike healing, inspiration when things look blackest and reinforcements at their most desperate are the sort that should be the domain of the Warlord far more than e.g. the Cleric. Feat chains I'd argue are bad design. And a class is the [I]single[/I] most removable way of putting such things in to the game. Also why should the default for hit points be the one that is explicitely against the 1e and 4e rules and not actually supported by any other edition? This part has confused me if we're meant to be uniting editions. The default is the opposite to the only explicit way of handling hit points? Because the problem I'm trying to solve is the one of needing godbotherers and healbots. And anything that has none of the problems of clerics is going to have problems of its own. That doesn't mean that hit point recovery is not a part of the [I]emergent playstyle [/I]of the warlord. Without spike hit point recovery it will not be a warlord. And without Mearls going out of his way to mock the Warlord in an official podcast I'd have a lot more faith. Depends how you make the warlord. I know plenty of 4e players who haven't enjoyed clerics ever but happily play warlords. Hell, I'm one of them. Because the Bravura Warlord comes with an awesome playstyle. The warlord comes with only some of the cleric problems. And I will be amazed if removing clerics is on the cards. [/QUOTE]
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