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[Warlords] Should D&D be tied to D&D Worlds?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6144954" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>The ability to wear plate mail effectively is a class feature of fighters, paladins, and very few other classes. Does everyone for whom it would be a good idea wear plate mail if they can afford it? Normally.</p><p></p><p>Plate mail is therefore effectively a class feature. With a financial tax (or possibly a de facto level restriction).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That is because the other options you can take in place of a greatsword or bastard sword are about equally good. You need to both show me that other options can be as good as spike healing and that it isn't simply a financial tax.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So you need to come up with a wide range of equipment that's as close to it in power or usefulness as a bastard sword to a waraxe. Now "Everyone gets a significant standard" is an interesting design addition. I don't dispute that. But it's a whole new design layer to add.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Then it's not an item like plate mail that's a class feature that others <em>can</em> get in 3e or 4e. (And not a terribly good class feature in 3e or even 4e). You've made an item slot there.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ride skill or mounted combat feat, no dungeons to leave the thing outside.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Proficiency - i.e. a class feature or feat with prerequisites. Not wanting a two handed weapon.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A feat.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A class feature. Or a feat.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>i.e. a class feature or a feat?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I went into that. It duplicates one of the <em>least useful effects</em> of a <em>single casting</em> of a powerful spell.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>At least every pair of them do. The ones that boost your stat to an odd level aren't that great.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Just like <em>almost every worthwhile feat</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Really? There's evidence that they are talking of how feats are going to be big. But the fundamental rule of storytelling is <em>show, don't tell</em>. What they are <em>showing</em> is a +1 to a single attribute. Which is actively <em>weaker</em> than a lot of 4e feats. I'm pretty sure I could make an entire 30 level character in 4e that did not have a single feat that I'd trade for +1 to a single stat. And do it in several classes.</p><p></p><p>Which means your "Accept that X is true" is an "Accept that X is true despite the fact that all the evidence they've shown is pointing in the opposite direction."</p><p></p><p>Now if they want to start making feats into fiat abilities with the effects of e.g. <a href="http://www.faterpg.com/dl/sotc-srd.html" target="_blank">Spirit of the Century Stunts</a> then my objection vanishes. If something like the following becomes a feat I will outright cheer.</p><p></p><p><em><strong><span style="color: #382513">Master of Disguise</span></strong></em><em>The character can convincingly pass himself off as nearly anyone with a little time and preparation. Once per day the player temporarily stops playing. His character is presumed to have donned a disguise and gone “off camera”. At any subsequent point during play the player may choose any nameless, filler character (a villain’s minion, a bellboy in the hotel, the cop who just pulled you over, the third guard from the left in the fight you're about to have) in a scene and reveal that that character is actually the PC in disguise!</em></p><p><em>The character may remain in this state for as long as the player chooses, but if anyone is tipped off that he might be nearby, an investigator may spend a fate point and roll Spot against the disguised character’s Bluff. If the investigator wins, his player (which may be the GM) gets to decide which filler character is actually the disguised PC (“Wait a minute – you’re the Emerald Emancipator!”).</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>This is the level feats would have to be at to be on a par with meaningful spike healing as a feat. They'd have to be abilities that let the player reach out and change what is going on in the fiction of the game in a non-trivial way. Rather than just +1 to a few assorted die rolls. Which is all a +1 to a stat really is.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It would. But it would either stick out from the current and proposed feats like a sore thumb or I'd wonder who had replaced the Next team while I wasn't looking because they'd completely overhauled the feat system from anything they'd either proposed or offered in the playtest packets. +1 to a stat is not in this league. (Now the ability to use a <em>Wish</em> however you want rather than in the single manner that gave you the least influence on the fiction would probably be...)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If the container is as big as I've just outlined then Next would be such a different game to the one shown so far that I'd need to rethink just about everything about it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6144954, member: 87792"] The ability to wear plate mail effectively is a class feature of fighters, paladins, and very few other classes. Does everyone for whom it would be a good idea wear plate mail if they can afford it? Normally. Plate mail is therefore effectively a class feature. With a financial tax (or possibly a de facto level restriction). That is because the other options you can take in place of a greatsword or bastard sword are about equally good. You need to both show me that other options can be as good as spike healing and that it isn't simply a financial tax. So you need to come up with a wide range of equipment that's as close to it in power or usefulness as a bastard sword to a waraxe. Now "Everyone gets a significant standard" is an interesting design addition. I don't dispute that. But it's a whole new design layer to add. Then it's not an item like plate mail that's a class feature that others [I]can[/I] get in 3e or 4e. (And not a terribly good class feature in 3e or even 4e). You've made an item slot there. Ride skill or mounted combat feat, no dungeons to leave the thing outside. Proficiency - i.e. a class feature or feat with prerequisites. Not wanting a two handed weapon. A feat. A class feature. Or a feat. i.e. a class feature or a feat? I went into that. It duplicates one of the [I]least useful effects[/I] of a [I]single casting[/I] of a powerful spell. At least every pair of them do. The ones that boost your stat to an odd level aren't that great. Just like [I]almost every worthwhile feat[/I]. Really? There's evidence that they are talking of how feats are going to be big. But the fundamental rule of storytelling is [I]show, don't tell[/I]. What they are [I]showing[/I] is a +1 to a single attribute. Which is actively [I]weaker[/I] than a lot of 4e feats. I'm pretty sure I could make an entire 30 level character in 4e that did not have a single feat that I'd trade for +1 to a single stat. And do it in several classes. Which means your "Accept that X is true" is an "Accept that X is true despite the fact that all the evidence they've shown is pointing in the opposite direction." Now if they want to start making feats into fiat abilities with the effects of e.g. [URL="http://www.faterpg.com/dl/sotc-srd.html"]Spirit of the Century Stunts[/URL] then my objection vanishes. If something like the following becomes a feat I will outright cheer. [I][B][COLOR=#382513]Master of Disguise[/COLOR][/B][/I][I]The character can convincingly pass himself off as nearly anyone with a little time and preparation. Once per day the player temporarily stops playing. His character is presumed to have donned a disguise and gone “off camera”. At any subsequent point during play the player may choose any nameless, filler character (a villain’s minion, a bellboy in the hotel, the cop who just pulled you over, the third guard from the left in the fight you're about to have) in a scene and reveal that that character is actually the PC in disguise![/I] [I]The character may remain in this state for as long as the player chooses, but if anyone is tipped off that he might be nearby, an investigator may spend a fate point and roll Spot against the disguised character’s Bluff. If the investigator wins, his player (which may be the GM) gets to decide which filler character is actually the disguised PC (“Wait a minute – you’re the Emerald Emancipator!”). [/I] This is the level feats would have to be at to be on a par with meaningful spike healing as a feat. They'd have to be abilities that let the player reach out and change what is going on in the fiction of the game in a non-trivial way. Rather than just +1 to a few assorted die rolls. Which is all a +1 to a stat really is. It would. But it would either stick out from the current and proposed feats like a sore thumb or I'd wonder who had replaced the Next team while I wasn't looking because they'd completely overhauled the feat system from anything they'd either proposed or offered in the playtest packets. +1 to a stat is not in this league. (Now the ability to use a [I]Wish[/I] however you want rather than in the single manner that gave you the least influence on the fiction would probably be...) If the container is as big as I've just outlined then Next would be such a different game to the one shown so far that I'd need to rethink just about everything about it. [/QUOTE]
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