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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ratskinner" data-source="post: 6146902" data-attributes="member: 6688937">My problem is not that HP are FitM, its that the "Middle" part of HP stretches out too long. That is the narration of a given HP loss may not be "complete" until well after many other checks and actions have taken place; alternatively, the "post-battle phase" narration often invalidates or ret-cons the narration during the battle. All of which, IME, has the net effect of discouraging actual narration and participation in the fiction during the battle. Which generates the situation where a player asks something like "Can I tell how he's doing?", which is code for something like "Does he have less than <my average damage> HP?" New DMs quickly learn not to put too much detail into combat descriptions because it just causes them trouble later. Yup. D&D does a bad job at subtle. I think this is just one of those areas where D&D's heritage as a wargame works against it.WRT Romantic Fantasy, I agree. Modern fantasy, I think, has increasingly taken a more "D&D" approach and details combat in a moment-to-moment way. However! that moment-to-moment approach isn't where D&D started. Old-school rounds are a minute long! I think D&D felt pressure almost immediately to ditch that. HP, I think, are a relic that didn't make an effective upgrade when the general D&D combat model switched from minutes to seconds. I do feel the game has suffered over time from this disjunction.TTRPGs are a new medium, and thus require a new understanding or representation of the tropes and trappings of fantasy (perhaps more than one, given GNS). On that, I think, we agree. I think your last two paragraphs there (particularly the last) are a fine portrayal of the joys of Gamism! I don't have objection to that. I will say that I think that those of us who are more fiction-oriented find that that can become limiting.* I intend that as neither demeaning or critical, its just a difference in priorities. I think 4e, from that perspective, is very successful at creating the particular proxy experience you write of. I don't think its any more successful than previous editions at making D&D less tied to D&D worlds (although some may argue that it has a different perspective on precisely what a D&D world is!)All of which leaves me in a strange place wrt 5e and D&D in general. I feel like a lot of their concerns during development have played around within and between the Gamist and Simulationist end of things and haven't really given me much hope that the new edition will prioritize story more than any previous edition (2e lip-service notwithstanding). On the other hand, I have FATE Core, and kinda feel like I don't need D&D for that at all.  *When rules are added to a system to enhance the play experience, they also define the play experience.</blockquote>

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