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[Warlords] Should D&D be tied to D&D Worlds?
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<blockquote data-quote="Mike Eagling" data-source="post: 6147966" data-attributes="member: 6703609"><p>Interesting. I'll swing by there when I get a chance <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree. D&D (and games based on it) have got better at the social "pillar" but ultimately it has been added with retrospect as the hobby has developed over the years. I think this is part of D&D's problem--and it's charm. It's a simple fact that some game systems are better at doing things Gygax, etc. never even considered when they designed D&D. These things have been added over the years but they are necessarily constrained by the basic assumptions inherent to the system, which isn't always the best way to implement them. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But can the wizard better your thief both in exploration and combat at the same time? And, more to the point, consistently? I'd argue a spell caster may be able to best a rogue in either exploration OR combat at any given time but not both; and the spell caster should not be able to maintain that superiority indefinitely. Obviously, if that isn't the case I'd agree there's a problem.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, there should be a difference in "colour" between different classes, otherwise what's the point? I think we agree here but I don't see a reduction in meaningful effectiveness whereas you do..?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, the cleric is a "poor" fighter compared to the er... fighter (!) but has a certain amount of divine grace to channel into other tasks, some of which are improvements to martial ability (bless, Bull's Strength, etc.) but these enhancements must be selected ahead of time--the cleric must anticipate their need--and their effect is only temporary. After burning all their spells a cleric is back to being a sub-standard fighter--and that's assuming they didn't decide to plough that divine grace into other effects in the first place.</p><p></p><p>It's similar with the wizard and the thief. A rogue can rogue all day and all night. A wizard has to plan ahead to act like a rogue and this is a opportunity cost for acting like a fighter or a wizard.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I'd say that's poor adventure design <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> By your rationale these encounters have been designed so that one character can complete them alone while the rest sit twiddling their thumbs; and because the wizard is able to use magic to out class the others he steals all the limelight. I highlight again that once a wizard has burned all his spells he's essentially useless.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The flexibility of spell casters is indeed their greatest strength. Magic as described in D&D and games like it is a box-of-tricks that can be applied to lots of different circumstances. That makes them very powerful characters and there should--dare I say must--be checks made against them to stop them being all-powerful. The Vancian model is one such check: the number of spells available is limited and once they've been cast they can't be cast again until they're reset. Meanwhile, mundane classes carry on regardless because they don't run out of swords.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mike Eagling, post: 6147966, member: 6703609"] Interesting. I'll swing by there when I get a chance :) I agree. D&D (and games based on it) have got better at the social "pillar" but ultimately it has been added with retrospect as the hobby has developed over the years. I think this is part of D&D's problem--and it's charm. It's a simple fact that some game systems are better at doing things Gygax, etc. never even considered when they designed D&D. These things have been added over the years but they are necessarily constrained by the basic assumptions inherent to the system, which isn't always the best way to implement them. But can the wizard better your thief both in exploration and combat at the same time? And, more to the point, consistently? I'd argue a spell caster may be able to best a rogue in either exploration OR combat at any given time but not both; and the spell caster should not be able to maintain that superiority indefinitely. Obviously, if that isn't the case I'd agree there's a problem. Well, there should be a difference in "colour" between different classes, otherwise what's the point? I think we agree here but I don't see a reduction in meaningful effectiveness whereas you do..? No, the cleric is a "poor" fighter compared to the er... fighter (!) but has a certain amount of divine grace to channel into other tasks, some of which are improvements to martial ability (bless, Bull's Strength, etc.) but these enhancements must be selected ahead of time--the cleric must anticipate their need--and their effect is only temporary. After burning all their spells a cleric is back to being a sub-standard fighter--and that's assuming they didn't decide to plough that divine grace into other effects in the first place. It's similar with the wizard and the thief. A rogue can rogue all day and all night. A wizard has to plan ahead to act like a rogue and this is a opportunity cost for acting like a fighter or a wizard. No, I'd say that's poor adventure design ;) By your rationale these encounters have been designed so that one character can complete them alone while the rest sit twiddling their thumbs; and because the wizard is able to use magic to out class the others he steals all the limelight. I highlight again that once a wizard has burned all his spells he's essentially useless. The flexibility of spell casters is indeed their greatest strength. Magic as described in D&D and games like it is a box-of-tricks that can be applied to lots of different circumstances. That makes them very powerful characters and there should--dare I say must--be checks made against them to stop them being all-powerful. The Vancian model is one such check: the number of spells available is limited and once they've been cast they can't be cast again until they're reset. Meanwhile, mundane classes carry on regardless because they don't run out of swords. [/QUOTE]
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[Warlords] Should D&D be tied to D&D Worlds?
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