Warmage...too weak? (Survivability)

[Thurbane]

I've never actually played a Warmage, so I'm wondering if someone with more experience could answer a question for me.

Does a Warmage suffer from having hardly any defensive spells on his list? It would seem to me that lack of Blur, Invisisbility, Mirror Image, Displacement etc. would really hurt him at lower levels.

A d6 HD and light armor seem to be a very poor substitute for a miss chance.

A Battle Sorcerer (from UA) would seem to be a much better alternative, IMHO. What is your practical experience?

 

[Legildur]

I have a 2nd level Warmage in a game on the boards here.

I would probably agree that the Warmage is a little weak, but 2 levels doesn't exactly make my experience extensive. He is literally mobile fire support and little else.

The warmage would be quite useful in a campaign if there were a wizard as well to deal with all the contingency/utility spells. Otherwise I feel that you are sacrificing flexibility compared with even a sorcerer.

That being said, the Warmage was an attack spell for almost any situation.

But how does that saying go? 'If your only tool is a hammer, then every problem starts to look like a nail.'

Edit: And I'm not at all familiar with the Battle Sorcerer

 

[Shayuri]

I have a 5th level warforged warmage in a PBP.

What I find is that...so far at least...I'm doing okay overall. My damage output is really too great yet, since it's hard using ranged touches once the melee guys close in, and there's not too many area spells until 3rd level spells are gained.

I do see some future issues though. I'm going to be absurdedly vulnerable to enemy magic, for one thing. Mundane attacks won't matter so much, since my AC will be pretty decent, and I'll have good HP for a mage. But I'll need to dig up something to give basic energy resistances pronto, or risk being wiped by empowered Magic Missiles and/or Scorching Rays.

In hindsight, I think a sorceror would have been a better choice...though the thematics of a warmage are perfect for the character concept. Even with the Advanced Learning though (which I plan to buy a Repair spell with), it's going to be tough.

The crucial point is that you'll always have a TON of possible spells to cast for attacking...but you can only ever cast one, maybe two tops, per round. It doesn't matter if you have a huge list of them to pick from, because the fact is that most spell levels only have one or two "workhorse" attack spells, and the rest are all basically niche spells, useful only in fairly specific circumstances.

I mean, really. Who casts Ice Knife over Scorching Ray? Or Acid Arrow over the same? Most attack sorcerors do just fine with Glitterdust and Scorching Ray for 2nd level. If lots of fire resistant foes come up, then get an Extra Spell with a feat, or Energy Substitution. Same thing with Fireball and Lightning Bolt at 3rd. Orb of Force at 4rth.

That's ultimately the failing of the warmage. Massive redundancy. Beguilers avoid that, because their spell lists are innately better picked. They have a pretty good selection of spells, not just enchantments and illusions. The perks of a warmage are also not as good as a Beguiler (DC bonus and SR penetration vs a little extra damage and increasing ability to cast spells in armor).

In summary...sorceror or battle sorceror is probably a better bet than Warmage in most circumstances. Warlock would also be a good substitute for a Warmage except for the loss in area effects.

 

[Kat']

Warmage is as meh as is gets for a primary caster, because of theri horribly limited spell selection. Many of their spells are Evocations (join ESSDDI today - Evocation Sucks, Specialize in Divination and Drop It!) or direct damage, and they do not gain any utility, buff, or battlefield-control spells unless you take Eclectic Learning. Furthermore, they cannot benefit from Quicken Spell as they are spontaneous casters, are Charisma-based (the worst ability to specialize in - it grants nothing besides bonus to skills!), are MAD, and have ridiculous class skills. Oh, and Sudden Metamagic feats are sub-optimal (they can be duplicated by equipment), but hey, they're free...

So apart from the flavor, there's really no reason to play a Warmage. Even poor old sorcerer (not Battle sorcerer !) fares better, and Wizard beats it anytime.

 

[AllisterH]

It also depends on which warmage you use. Most people are familiar with the one from Complete Wizard (or was it Complete Arcane?) but originally, the warmage comes from the Miniatures Handbook.

In there, their spell-list was slightly more extensive thus, they weren't as one-dimensional as the CA version made them.

 

[Thurbane]

The issue that particularly troubles me is their relative vulnerability to missile fire and surprise attacks. The best defense against these kind of attacks is usually illusion based spells like Mirror Image, Invisibility and Displacement, which a Warmage doesn't have.

I'd like to try a Warmage sometime, but I just can't help but feel I'd end up as a pincushion at around 3rd or 4th level...

 

[JRR_Talking]

am about to start playing one for the first time in Living Greyhawk (before it all ends).

Human so at 1st level was thinking of taking toughness twice, then 'swapping' out those feats somewhere down the line OR taking somelike spell-hand and insightful that grant 3 or 4 utility spells each per day, to vary his usage?

The good thing about warmage is that u have few good knowledge skills and can always max out skills like intimidate, concentrate etc...so better than a sorceror as u need high INT

I dont think AC will be a problem as u will never cast a spell that will clash with your magic items!! (ROP, ANA, shield, armour, dex gloves....it alls adds up). U can have a wide range of defensive spells but as combat never lasts more than 3 or 4 rounds they never get used.

the BAB should be 1 step better i do think though.

John

 

[Kat']

Human so at 1st level was thinking of taking toughness twice, then 'swapping' out those feats somewhere down the line OR taking somelike spell-hand and insightful that grant 3 or 4 utility spells each per day, to vary his usage?

If no one else in your party can take this role over, yeah, go for it. Otherwise I'd suggest Improved Initiative and Fell Weaken.

The good thing about warmage is that u have few good knowledge skills

Is that supposed to be GOOD ???

and can always max out skills like intimidate, concentrate etc...so better than a sorceror as u need high INT

You don't NEED high Int, it's just better because of your Warmage Edge. But you don't really need it.

I dont think AC will be a problem as u will never cast a spell that will clash with your magic items!! (ROP, ANA, shield, armour, dex gloves....it alls adds up).

No Invisibility, no Mirror Image, no Spider Climb, no Freedom of Movement, no Teleport-like spells... dude, you're absolutely no melee type, if you want to survive you need a bigger security than a less-than-optimal AC!

U can have a wide range of defensive spells

Uh... such as? Last time I looked through the Warmage spell list I coudn't figure much defensive stuff.

but as combat never lasts more than 3 or 4 rounds they never get used.

At low levels, perhaps.

the BAB should be 1 step better i do think though.

Yeah. And the spell list. And the skill list. And then you got a Battle Sorceror.

 

[wayne62682]

It's not so much that a Warmage is weak, it's just that A) they're very one-dimensional, and B) Blasting/damage spells are usually a poor choice for an arcane caster. You end up really limited with what you can do as a Warmage, and this typically comes back to bite you in the behind.

Playing one does sound fun, though, although I agree they should get a Cleric's BAB - low BAB really messes with a class that mainly has ranged attacks, even if they are ranged touch attacks.

I'm not familiar really with a Battle Sorcerer in play, but it's never sat right with me giving up even more spells, when the Sorcerer gets a pitiful few as it is.

 

[XCorvis]

As a house rule, perhaps they could be allowed to take non-evocation spells with their "learn another evocation spell" ability?