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Message: <blockquote data-quote="StGabe" data-source="post: 3392557" data-attributes="member: 49275">So basically you are saying that wizards are powerful therefore anything that is going to compete with a wizard has to be able to cast all the same spells, just as well, oh and have the BAB of a fighter.  I.e. a wizard is already broken, let's give them a prestige class that makes them even more broken.The core philosophy of 3e+ and the thing which you don't seem to be accepting is that you can multiclass aplenty but you always have to give something up.  A level of one class is equal, more or less, to a level of another class.  Where it's not, that's an aspect of the system that is poorly balanced.Exactly the point.  A DM that is interested in a balanced campaign setting won't give these out as they are very unbalanced.Not at all.  For example, take five levels of wizard and you lose +3BAB, an average of 7.5 hps and 3 fighter feats.  You gain: a familiar, a wizard feat, more balanced and slightly higher saves, and most importantly the ability to cast up to third level spells including:Mage Armor (quite decent armor replacement for the first 10 or so levels)Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, etc.True StrikeEnlargeInvisibilityBlurMirror ImageDarknessResist ElementsFlyHasteKeen EdgeDisplacementMajor ImageI.e. an incredible arsenal of utility spells.  It's simply untrue that such a character is that bad.  They might be slightly underpowered to the rest of the group but, IME, a slightly underpowered character is much better to have around than someone who is definitely overpowered.  Someone who is slightly overpowered will still contribute a lot, especially in a well run campaign that will allow the player to use their utility spells well, to roleplay, etc.  Someone who is overpowered overshadows everyone sitting at the table and makes them all enjoy the experience less.Such a character is only broken bad if you think that you need to be broken good to compete....Let's compare that to taking a level of fighter, 5 levels of wizard and then the 10 in Eldritch Wizard (which people seem to be considering one of the weakest classes here) to 16 levels of wizard:You lose 2 levels of caster progression and 2 caster feats.You gain:Two fighter featsMore varied, higher Saves+5BABAn average of +16 hpsIn other words, for a cost of what is basically two levels worth, you gain what would take other classes 5+ levels to gain....The only argument here seems to be: yeah but I need wish at level 17 or I'm not broken.  That's not an argument.  It doesn't have anything to do with class balance, it has to do with the fact that high level casting can get out of hand and it's the reason why a lot of campaigns quit well before that level.  Casting those spells, and playing high level characters like that CAN be fun, but by the time you get there either the DM has to do a lot of work to keep wizards from dominating or balance has gone completely out the window.</blockquote>

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