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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nonlethal Force" data-source="post: 3393764" data-attributes="member: 35788">One interesting rules note here is that the core rules make a point to talk about associated class levels with regard to improving monsters.  In other words, if you give the MM Grimlock (or some such creature) a full level of sorcerer, it really isn't going to make the creature into a true CR 2.  The strengths of a Grimlock just don't scream "add magic levels!" (especially that CHA 6, but we'll ignore that for now).So ... we have a note that says use non-associated class levels as 1/2 CR until the class level equals the original creature's HD.  [That would be 2 for the above mentioned Grimlock, if anyone is counting.]I think the same comparison could easily be extrapolated to class advancement.  I know this isn't by the actual rules, hence I called it an extrapolation:Fighter 19 has 19 associated class levels, so is reasonably a CR 19.Wizard 19 has 19 associated class levels, so it is reasonably a CR 19.Fighter 10/Wizard 9 would have 10 associated class levels and 9 nonassociated class levels and could be argued to be about a CR 15.  In play, that's not far off ... actually.  Perhaps it is a CR 16 combo.  But it is certainly not a CR 19 combo!The Figher 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10 is supposed to be a CR 16 combination.  In an overidealized comparison of classes, it is about as good of a pure fighter as a fighter 11 and as good of a caster as a wizard 14.  So, 14 associated class levels plus 5.5 non-associated class levels might make someone to think that it is actually a CR 19 or 20.  I think this is what happens when people simply say "but it has almost full casting and has full BAB!"  This analysis is similar to the process of evaluation that the mind just performed.But, remember that the hit die are siginficantly reduced for all those supposed fighter levels (instead of 11d10 it is really 1d10+10d6).  Oh, and they didn't get the bonus feats, either (The get the bonus at 1st level, but missed out on 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th - that's five feats short!).  For that matter, they lost out on a bonus feat for the wizard (10th level Wizard) and any familiar development past Wizard 5.  Take all that into account and the desired CR 16 is a decent guess as a scale down from the over idealized CR 19 or 20.I think the EK is a reasonably balanced class.  It doesn't succeed in all circumstances and it certainly has weaknesses that a DM can exploit by CR 16 opponents!</blockquote>

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