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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm Cleo" data-source="post: 3395815" data-attributes="member: 40615">StGabe,No one's arguing that we need Wish; no one's arguing that a build has to "have it all"; no one's arguing that every character has to be the most powerful in the group.You also seem to be making broad statements like, "Multiclassing is about . . ." or "[a character has] no business with . . ."  Again, I suggested that classes like the Eldritch Knight may not conform to your aesthetic ideals of balance (perhaps developed through your experience in the industry), but when you actually get them on the table, they're not unbalanced -- "unbalanced" defined as routinely stealing the spotlight from the other characters or doing far more than any other character could.Charlesatan also makes a good point:  the armor and BAB restrictions of Wizards, even at mid levels, are meaningless.  You can give yourself a 60 STR if you want, or you can buff your AC to the sky.  If those restrictions are part of a balance analysis, the analysis is divorced from actual results on the gaming table -- it's an aesthetic sensibility.  That's fine; I guess my point was just that different people on this thread are appealing to different conceptions of "balance".The wizard's job is to cast wizard spells at enemies -- usually crowd control stuff, since that's the wizard's strength (Glitterdust, Web, Solid Fog, Walls, Enchantments), and be ready to buff the characters who can't buff themselves.  The Fighter is the tank, because the Eldritch Knight doesn't have the durability.  The bard, I assume, is playing music and doing more crowd control.  The sorceror is casting his spells?  And clerics are more than healbots generally -- the presence of a character who can cast arcane buffs on himself doesn't change their abilities.  I guess I don't understand how every other character's role is defined solely in terms of their relationship to the Eldritch Knight.  E.g., if a meleer can buff himself, the wizard "loses" part of his role?  Abjurant Champion is, we all must admit, pretty amazing.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Charlesatan,I didn't mean to imply that Eldritch Knight wasn't a valid class choice, only that the player in my group never felt like he was vastly "more" than the straight fighter or wizard.  He did his thing well, and when he got to mid-high levels (when the combo really comes together), he was polymorphing, DPS-ing and grappling (he loved MM3's troll forms) for the party.By the way, isn't Draconic Polymorph only 1 round / level, but it's Range:  Personal, so it can be Persisted?I'm Cleo!</blockquote>

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