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<blockquote data-quote="Vyvyan Basterd" data-source="post: 5035993" data-attributes="member: 4892">THE PLAN determines what skills the characters use to try to accomplish their plan. 1E Players: &quot;We try to move steathily through the area to avoid contact with the bandits.&quot; -Plan. 1E DM: &quot;Have the Thief roll Move Silently and the elf roll a d6. The fighter, cleric and wizard aren't very skilled at that, so...&quot; [I don't remember how to adjudicate this by 1E rules, but by common sense I'd have to decide whether they succeed or fail.] 4E Players: &quot;We try to move steathily through the area to avoid contact with the bandits.&quot; -Plan. 4E DM: &quot;Each of you roll a Stealth check.&quot; [By the setup of my skill challenge if more PCs succeed than fail, then they have succeeded.]It is in no means &quot;Post-facto narration.&quot; The PCs plans directly result in how they deal with the bandits.Here's a even wilder idea! I AM! They determine a course of action - a plan - the skill challenge gives some examples of ideas they may come up with. These examples allow me to pre-determine how easy or difficult I think a plan will be instead of implementing it on the fly and to have a comparison point for plans that the players think of that I didn't, because ya know player do that sometimes.It does play out like that! I don't announce I my game show voice &quot;SKILL CHALLENGE TIME!!!&quot; I set up the area, they hear rumors of bandits, what do you do? You are adjudicating on the fly. I've put preparation into my adjudication. Different methods. Same results.The part of the process you consider key is still alive and well if a skill challenge isn't treating like a little side game. A skill challenge is nothing more than a semi-prepared adjudication framework. It is not meant to take the place of the process.Trying to convince me that I'm off-topic by continuing an off-topic discussion? Good plan. I'll accept that we've gotten off-topic.Exactly. The Skill Challenge is a DM adjucation tool, not a player tool. That's why it's in the DMG, not the PHB. A good skill challenge will pass without the players ever knowing it took place.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Vyvyan Basterd, post: 5035993, member: 4892"] [B]THE PLAN[/B] determines what skills the characters use to try to accomplish their plan. 1E Players: "We try to move steathily through the area to avoid contact with the bandits." -Plan. 1E DM: "Have the Thief roll Move Silently and the elf roll a d6. The fighter, cleric and wizard aren't very skilled at that, so..." [I don't remember how to adjudicate this by 1E rules, but by common sense I'd have to decide whether they succeed or fail.] 4E Players: "We try to move steathily through the area to avoid contact with the bandits." -Plan. 4E DM: "Each of you roll a Stealth check." [By the setup of my skill challenge if more PCs succeed than fail, then they have succeeded.] It is in no means "Post-facto narration." The PCs plans directly result in how they deal with the bandits. Here's a even wilder idea! [B]I AM![/B] [I]They[/I] determine a course of action - a plan - the skill challenge gives some [B]examples[/B] of ideas they may come up with. These examples allow me to pre-determine how easy or difficult I think a plan will be instead of implementing it on the fly and to have a comparison point for plans that the players think of that I didn't, because ya know player do that sometimes. [B]It does play out like that![/B] I [I]don't[/I] announce I my game show voice "SKILL CHALLENGE TIME!!!" I set up the area, they hear rumors of bandits, what do you do? You are adjudicating on the fly. I've put preparation into my adjudication. Different methods. Same results. The part of the process [I]you[/I] consider key is still alive and well [I]if[/I] a skill challenge isn't treating like a little side game. A skill challenge is nothing more than a semi-prepared adjudication framework. It is not meant to take the place of the process. Trying to convince me that I'm off-topic by continuing an off-topic discussion? Good plan. I'll accept that we've gotten off-topic. Exactly. The Skill Challenge is a DM adjucation tool, not a player tool. That's why it's in the DMG, not the PHB. A good skill challenge will pass without the players ever knowing it took place. [/QUOTE]

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