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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5036082" data-attributes="member: 18280">Was it?  Where was this stated?  I apparently missed it.Here we agree.Because it is relevant.  I wasn't aware that there was a permission-only clause on EN World towards being the first to bring things up.  Is it in The Rules?  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" />It is clear to me that skill challenges were built out of complex skill checks.  The question of which works better is relevant.  After all, complex skill checks should work in 4e just fine.IMHO.  YMMV.I stopped reading 4e materials past the Core core, so I don't have first-hand knowledge of its evolution, although I have heard as much.  Still, the examples one sees on EN World do not lead me to believe that the evolution has been sufficient yet.Or, at least, not sufficient to warrant the hype.Agreed, if there is strong evidence that they are in the minority.  Otherwise, what we have is the kernel of a mechanic that has yet to sprout into a fully fledged tool.  That some people have sprouted it on their own should not be taken to support the framework, either.I would also argue that conversations like this are useful for the designers, should they happen to read them.  Who knows?  Perhaps the seed of a Dragon article appeared in your last post!I agree with your advocation.That the check is not the result of fiat, though, is a (perhaps welcoms?) illusion.  I would be interested in reading that text, but am not going to buy another hardcover for a game I don't play.   So I will just accept your word.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I think it goes something like this:1.  Was 1e designed for game balance.2.  What do you mean by game balance?3.  You know, like what 4e has.  That's the only definition of game balance there is.4.  I am fairly certain that there are other types, and that some parts of 4e's game balance damage other types of game balance.5.  For instance?6.  Skill challenges.Etc.Now, I don't hold that skill challenges are necessarily a bad thing.  But I do argue that I have yet to see an example of a skill challenge where said challenge is the best mechanic for the job, out of the mechanics already devised and available to the designers of 4e.On this or on a forked thread, I would love to see an example of a good skill challenge.  By a good skill challenge, I mean one that is (1) not Grasshopper Bounding, and (2) not better served by other mechanics.RC</blockquote>

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