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Message: <blockquote data-quote="TheLoneRanger1979" data-source="post: 7696765" data-attributes="member: 6804148">Ah finally! Another one, and this time i'm around to participate <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />Welcome fellow Tolkienites! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />Now where to start. So many of you fine gentlefolk have already made most of the best points. I can only full heartedly agree with most of those. Yes Gandalf is neither human nor a mage in DnD terms. Although he is familiar and proficient in some spell casting (as already quoted on this forum), most of his power (and i dare say the greatest part) doesn't come from his spells, but rather from his nature and "jurisdiction". How can we best translate this amalgam of abilities into a DnD language? Probably with an MC as some of you have pointed out. Lore bard was often thrown around and it does seam to fit well into some of his abilities and lore wise would make some sense. What "level" should he be? Well..... the answer to both this questions of course already pointed out lies in different places in different editions. As i am not versed enough in all editions of DnD (and i don't have the source material for more then half of those), i'll limit myself to only pointing out the ways and magnitudes of which he (and other Middle Earth characters) were able to manipulate the environment. I'll skip with most "low level" innate abilities like magical senses and jump straight to the major feats. Note, some of this feats are not powers themselves but actual accomplishments. -As most have concluded, he does manifest affinity to manipulate fire. Some for of fire balls or other related actions or "spells" thus seam fitting. In at least one case (on Wethertop) when he was surrounded by Nazgul he seams to have "cast" something that appears to be (i am sure i got the name wrong) a 2E Fire Blast or Flame Blast, that is a powerful fireball that originates from the caster. Find the level of that spell, the level needed to cast it at least once, and you have the minimum level right there.-During the Moria encounter both he and the Balrog engaged in a contest of wills and used both power words and wards to seal doors and walls. More difficult to quantify.-Besides the fire and lighting abilities, he also seams to posses some kind of "Sacred Light" thingy and i don't mean the light he used to lead the way. Also difficult to quantify. -The protection and shielding was already mentioned.-During his fight with the Balrog on top of the mountain we don't get much detail as to what and how much was actually done. But we do know this:"I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountainside where he smote it in his ruin"...... Which brings me to the next point..... the Balrog was no pushover. Neither were the Powers and their servants. A dead Balrog broke a mountainside in his fall. That tells you something. And when he first senses it, Gandalf states "I have finally met my mach". I would presume he meant that this enemy was his equal. And lo! He died fighting it. So, on the nature of the Powers and their servants. Tolkien himself states in the Silmarillion that though they were not gods, the Valar or the Powers were in fact what humans from later ages would consider gods to be. Could they create matter out of "nothing". The way i read the books, i could never clearly discern if they created the world or only shaped it, but i am pretty sure they could rase continents and islands, raise and hollow oceans, break and raise mountains, create celestial objects...... all these things do not sound like work of Solars and Planetars. At the very best Solars and Planetars from DnD could be their servants. Similar to what hte Maiar are. And to some extent the Maiar could produce similar effects, only on a smaller scale. But not just the Maiar..... powerful Eldar as well. When the one Ring fell, and Sauron with it, after the hosts of Lothlorien and Mirkwood defeated the armies of Dol Guldur, Galadriel herself came out and she rooted the fell Castle of its foundations. So yeah, i can see why some would consider her the Greatest of the Eldar on Middle Earth. And maybe even the most powerful of the White Counsel.So where does this lead us? First of all, i think that in his true form, Gandalf as a Maia and a spirit, would be equivalent to a Balrog, or at least the Moria Balrog (after all that is what the Balrogs are, fallen Maiar). However, Gandalf stated that as the time passed his abilities are diminishing. Probably a result of him being encased in a human body. He did forget many things in example, that he once knew. Also, when he came back to the Fellowship, he stated that neither of them (Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli) had weapons that could harm him. Now, i am not sure, did he meant harm his physical form or his spirit? After all, the only noted case when a Wizard died was he himself after "spending" himself in the fight with the Balrog (or possibly dying from the wounds). Yes Saruman was killed by an arrow in the back, but at this time (like Sauron and Morgoth before him) he has already "fallen" beyond redemption and was confined in the shape he has chosen for himself. Ah, look at the time. Closing hours. I must cut short. A very topic indeed! I would like to see it continue and will try to jump in again later this evening.</blockquote>

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