Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7696805" data-attributes="member: 4937">Well, late Tolkien revisionism has Tolkien rejecting that orcs are corrupted elves or men (or hybrids thereof) because he doesn't like the theological implications of that and has him floating a new idea that they are simply all puppets of Morgoth and later Sauron.  However, this idea is problematic because he's presented the orcs in the text as being independent beings with personalities and even voicing thoughts of rebellion.  So, I'm not sure how much we can allow non-settled issues in the Good Professor's own mind to trump his text.In any event, there is precedent: Ungloiant certainly does manage to spawn an independent brood to plague the Earth.  Granted, there is the suggestion she is of Valar status (the missing intended spouse of Melkor), but I don't think it is beyond Sauron's capacity.  Whether she needed the aid of some other living creatures seems a trivial matter, given how unlike her spawn is from the natural creature it resembles in stature and intelligence.  So if Ungloiant can breed a horde of fiendish spiders into which a large part of her vitality and authority passes, then I don't see why its out of the question that a Sauron stature Maiar (or more than one) can turn itself or pervert something together with itself into a furnace of horn and iron that ends up having a will of its own and is capable of breeding with others of its kind.  This is certainly easier to buy as explanation than Illuvatar having created dragonkind to wait around for Morgoth to corrupt.   After all, there are plenty of uncorrupted spiders, but where then are the uncorrupted dragons - iguanas?Also there are parallels, although we know scarcely more about them than we know of trolls or dragons.  Where do vampires or werewolves (and presumably from that line Worgs) come from if some Maiar doesn't establish the lineage?</blockquote>

Verification