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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 6825038" data-attributes="member: 37579">But would you? If you're playing the tank paladin/cleric you certainly have the option of preparing those spells, but you're likely to memorize spells that help you do your role. The tank or healer or CCer can just decide to go full offence one day and prep different spells, but then the party is down a character of their role, and the PC's feats, gear, and related character choices are being un-optimally used. A life cleric makes a pretty poor blaster.That's your opinion and repeating it every chance you get doesn't make it true. Really, it just demonstrates what abilities you find memorable and noteworthy in the fighter.Fighting style is both defensive and offensive. Second Wind is defensive. Action surge can be used for any action, and so is neutral. Ability score improvements and feats can be spent on anything, and so also role neutral. Indomitable is defensive.Only the extra attack is purely DPR. So it's really akin to saying that because paladins get smite their main contribution is DPR.As fighters have two defensive features compared to the one pure offence, you could make an equally strong point that fighters' main contribution is tanking. Just because you have the opinion that a fighter using Action Surge for something other than attacking  does not mean there are not valid uses. A tank could use Action Surge to Ready or Dodge. There's plenty of design space for maneuvers that encourage other uses for Action Surge including tanking or support, such as the PDK granting attacks via the power. And, really, a support character making attacks via another character is pretty darn DPR. Whether or not you're personally dealing the damage or doing it via casting "rogue" at the dragon is functionally irrelevant if the damage is done using your resources on your turn. Have you even seen a battle master in action? Maneuvers see more use than they do on paper. At mid-levels (7+) you have five dice that recharge every short rest, so you can use a couple each combat (fewer in a longer series of encounters, more with spread out encounters). That's hardly trivial. And since combats are over quickly, there's only a couple useful times to use a particular maneuver, times when they wouldn't be wasted. In my experience maneuvers can get used just as much as non-cantrip spells (unless a caster is trying for a 5 minute workday).Other than removing conditions, the battle master or PDK can do all of those things. And even a theoretical full warlord class would be unable to remove most conditions. The 4e warlord couldn't do much to lasting conditions. They can't do them each and every round. But, I can't think of any class that can do any of those at-will. Given there's no class in the game that has no magic (if you consider "rage" a magical power) I don't see why this is an issue. D&D is not the best game to use for a low magic game without heavy modification. The d20 system can do it just fine, but you generally need to rework all the classes. The warlord might be a good idea for a 5e version of Iron Heroes but that's not really the baseline.</blockquote>

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