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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6825083" data-attributes="member: 996">Sure.  It's often an at least viable strategy for given Cleric, Druid, or whatever who has some support spells on his list to choose a different strategy and different spells in a given day where he might expect it to be more effective.  Part of the power/challenge of playing a caster is making decisions like that.5e, as you've pointed out, no longer has set roles.  Maybe sub-optimal, but quite possibly still viable, if you find yourself in a situation that calls for it.  And certainly nowhere near as sub-optimal as using Action Surge for the Help action or to Dodge or Ready...They're valid.  They're just not viable compared to the more conventional alternatives.The irony of your choice of words aside, just look at the abilities that all fighters get, before folding in archetypes.  Whatever choices a fighter makes, his extra attacks will give him some serious DPR, and his Action Surge can double that for a round.   You can optimize around that, or you can pick a style like Protection and optimize in a different direction - but you'll still be hitting things a lot and toting up some DPR, because you're a fighter, and you're 'best at fighting.'  It's your thing.   There are 6 fighting styles.  The majority are offensive.   1 is defensive (+1 AC), another aids allies.  They're neither very potent, though, a small fraction of what the class does.  d10 HD is also tanky, as is being able to use any sort of armor.  But most character can manage good AC and have d8 HD.  1 more hp per level on average isn't all that major.Laughable.  The fighter has a strong selection of weapons, Fighting styles that improve offense - and the few that don't have no synergy with Action Surge - and, Extra Attack - and nothing much else that just every Tom, Dick, and Kobold can't do.  Even if we give the fighting styles equal weight, 2/3rds of low-level fighters have a style that helps offense, so makes attacking with Action Surge that much better, and as soon as they hit 5th level, Extra Attack makes using Action Surge for anything but attacking a waste.  They can be, but feats synergize really well with certain fighting styles - GWF/GWM & Archery/SharpShooter arguably a little too well.  So, in theory, sure, optimally, though, you build on what the fighter has. Paladins get Smite and Extra attack, DPR is a very real option for them.  They just have more alternatives than the fighter.  They can spend slots on spells, instead of Smite - spells are a /lot/ more versatile and high-impact than the everyman actions a fighter could take instead of using Action Surge effectively, to attack.  So, yeah, the Paladin /is/ a DPR class, it's also a modest support class and has versatility from spellcasting.  The fighter, conversely, is a DPR class.  Both can 'tank' (stand up to melee a bit longer than the next guy).You'd have to willfully ignore the relative power of the Extra Attack & Action surge vs Second Wind & Indomitable, but you could.  Tanking arguably includes DPR, though, as the low-DPR tank can be safely ignored, anyway.  Possibly, and the Battlemaster could certainly do with more and more varied (and some higher-level-appropriate) maneuvers.  There's plenty more design space beyond that for an actual Warlord, too.Any sort of offensive buff could be seen that way, yes.  Yes.  I do run 5e, remember.  With CS dice adding a boost directly to their damage on demand, they're pretty effective, too. How little use do they see on paper.  On paper, you can expect a short rest every other encounter, which is essentially x3 the number of CS dice per day vs no short rests.  Not every campaign hits that benchmark.Every possible battlemaster plus a PDK can do those things.  Any given one of them can do a couple of those thing, infrequently & not too impressively.They could grant or add bonuses to saving throws, which is still a legitimate way to remove conditions in 5e, if not quite as universal as it was in 4e. The Resistance cantrip buffs saving throws and Guideance other ability checks.  Though I'm not sure about the at-will obsession - are you just assuming that no martial class can ever have any sort of managed resource, like Second Wind, Action Surge, or CS dice?Even if you do, 4 sub-class exist in the PH, alone, and a few more in SCAG and UA.   That is exactly the issue.  At least one prior ed of D&D could be used for low-/no-magic campaigns (or even just no-caster parties) relatively seamlessly, while 5e currently isn't up to supporting that style of play.  One of the justifications for having 5e at all was that prior editions didn't support a wide enough range of 'styles,' and it was another stated (by Mearls, in L&L) goal of 5e to do so.</blockquote>

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