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<blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 6835439" data-attributes="member: 37579"><p>Then one would think you'd remember.</p><p></p><p><em>Heroes of the Fallen Lands</em> and the <em>Rules Compedium</em> were released at the end of September 2010 (the 21st). The Red Box was released earlier in September. </p><p>The <a href="http://icv2.com/articles/games/view/18504/top-5-rpgs-q3-2010" target="_blank">ICv2 Summer chart</a> was released in October 2010 and showed Pathfinder and D&D tied. It's for Q3 which is July, August, and September. It's unlikely a product released for the final week of Sept had that much impact as to allow PF to tie.</p><p></p><p>The next chart (<a href="http://icv2.com/articles/games/view/19721/top-5-roleplaying-games-q4-2010" target="_blank">Q4</a> 2010) shows D&D back on the top. That's when Essentials has launched. The next chart released is for <a href="http://icv2.com/articles/games/view/20743/top-5-rpgs-q2-2011" target="_blank">Q2 2011</a>, encompassing the months of April-June. At that point Pathfinder finally claims the top spot. </p><p>You'll remember at the time people dismissed Pathfinder's ascendancy as the result of D&D not having much product in stores, following the cancellation or delay of a number of books. Not Essentials.</p><p></p><p>You can see the full timeline of ICv2 charts here:</p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1984-Top-5-RPGs-Compiled-Charts-2008-Present#.VtOSCZwrJaQ" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1984-Top-5-RPGs-Compiled-Charts-2008-Present#.VtOSCZwrJaQ</a></p><p></p><p></p><p>True.</p><p></p><p></p><p>As show above, untrue. A year in, Pathfinder tied <em>Psionic Power</em>, the <em>Dark Sun Campaign Setting</em>, and the related monster book. Essentials beat Pathfinder. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, as show above, untrue. </p><p>Essentials beat Pathfinder and returned D&D to the top spot. But following the return to hardcovers, the cancellations, and the slower release schedule Pathfinder claimed the #1 spot and remained there until 5e was released. </p><p></p><p></p><p>WotC didn't announce 5th Edition until January of 2012, well after the ICv2 chart in August 2011 showed Pathfinder on top. The cessation of publishing a few months after the announcement of 5e (several months really as 5e books continued for half of 2012) just allowed Pathfinder to retain the top spot.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That, at least, is true.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Pathfinder fans are indeed a minority. </p><p>But it points more to 4e not resonating with fans, since D&D managed to tie with Pathfinder pre-Essentials. And the fact they decided to make Essentials at all, a decision which would have been made back in 2009 when Pathfinder had just released, a mere year after the launch of 4e. They decided to release Essentials when PF was in its infancy, before the <em>Bestiary</em> was out and well, well before the game became popular. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't <em>want</em> to claim anything. I get no satisfaction from the game I love doing poorly, even if it's not my favourite edition. I take no joy in the events that led to the game being managed by a skeleton crew. </p><p>But the numbers don't lie. And it really looks like 4th Edition wasn't performing as well as desired from very early. </p><p> </p><p></p><p>I say 4e fans are a minority because I believe that any fans of a <em>particular edition</em> are a minority. That the majority of D&D fans are just that: fans of D&D. First and foremost they like D&D, play D&D, and don't care about the specific flavour of the game. (Which comes from the what Mearls reported from the surveys, and was a total surprise to me. But I'm not going to argue with facts: I'm going to change my opinion in response to the new facts & evidence.)</p><p></p><p>Do they deserve to be excluded? Certainly not. But it's a pretty big jump from "don't exclude" to "make a class just for them." </p><p>Really, that assumes all 4e fans want the exact same thing - they all want a warlord - which is pretty unlikely. 4e fans are likely a diverse lot who want lots of different things. It's reductive to make them all warlord fans and claim the best way to do service to the edition is with a class. </p><p>Many might be just as happy with an avenger or shaman. A more robust tactical system might also top the lists. Couldn't they also honour 4e by doing an adventure storyline set in the Nentir Vale? Maybe some details on the Dawn War or maps of the 4e cosmology?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jester David, post: 6835439, member: 37579"] Then one would think you'd remember. [I]Heroes of the Fallen Lands[/I] and the [I]Rules Compedium[/I] were released at the end of September 2010 (the 21st). The Red Box was released earlier in September. The [URL="http://icv2.com/articles/games/view/18504/top-5-rpgs-q3-2010"]ICv2 Summer chart[/URL] was released in October 2010 and showed Pathfinder and D&D tied. It's for Q3 which is July, August, and September. It's unlikely a product released for the final week of Sept had that much impact as to allow PF to tie. The next chart ([URL="http://icv2.com/articles/games/view/19721/top-5-roleplaying-games-q4-2010"]Q4[/URL] 2010) shows D&D back on the top. That's when Essentials has launched. The next chart released is for [URL="http://icv2.com/articles/games/view/20743/top-5-rpgs-q2-2011"]Q2 2011[/URL], encompassing the months of April-June. At that point Pathfinder finally claims the top spot. You'll remember at the time people dismissed Pathfinder's ascendancy as the result of D&D not having much product in stores, following the cancellation or delay of a number of books. Not Essentials. You can see the full timeline of ICv2 charts here: [url]http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1984-Top-5-RPGs-Compiled-Charts-2008-Present#.VtOSCZwrJaQ[/url] True. As show above, untrue. A year in, Pathfinder tied [I]Psionic Power[/I], the [I]Dark Sun Campaign Setting[/I], and the related monster book. Essentials beat Pathfinder. Again, as show above, untrue. Essentials beat Pathfinder and returned D&D to the top spot. But following the return to hardcovers, the cancellations, and the slower release schedule Pathfinder claimed the #1 spot and remained there until 5e was released. WotC didn't announce 5th Edition until January of 2012, well after the ICv2 chart in August 2011 showed Pathfinder on top. The cessation of publishing a few months after the announcement of 5e (several months really as 5e books continued for half of 2012) just allowed Pathfinder to retain the top spot. That, at least, is true. Pathfinder fans are indeed a minority. But it points more to 4e not resonating with fans, since D&D managed to tie with Pathfinder pre-Essentials. And the fact they decided to make Essentials at all, a decision which would have been made back in 2009 when Pathfinder had just released, a mere year after the launch of 4e. They decided to release Essentials when PF was in its infancy, before the [I]Bestiary[/I] was out and well, well before the game became popular. I don't [I]want[/I] to claim anything. I get no satisfaction from the game I love doing poorly, even if it's not my favourite edition. I take no joy in the events that led to the game being managed by a skeleton crew. But the numbers don't lie. And it really looks like 4th Edition wasn't performing as well as desired from very early. I say 4e fans are a minority because I believe that any fans of a [I]particular edition[/I] are a minority. That the majority of D&D fans are just that: fans of D&D. First and foremost they like D&D, play D&D, and don't care about the specific flavour of the game. (Which comes from the what Mearls reported from the surveys, and was a total surprise to me. But I'm not going to argue with facts: I'm going to change my opinion in response to the new facts & evidence.) Do they deserve to be excluded? Certainly not. But it's a pretty big jump from "don't exclude" to "make a class just for them." Really, that assumes all 4e fans want the exact same thing - they all want a warlord - which is pretty unlikely. 4e fans are likely a diverse lot who want lots of different things. It's reductive to make them all warlord fans and claim the best way to do service to the edition is with a class. Many might be just as happy with an avenger or shaman. A more robust tactical system might also top the lists. Couldn't they also honour 4e by doing an adventure storyline set in the Nentir Vale? Maybe some details on the Dawn War or maps of the 4e cosmology? [/QUOTE]
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