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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6842961" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>The current 5e design paradigm doesn't leave a lot of room in sub-classes. They'll add to or re-jigger class features a little. In theory, sub-classes could have been a lot more defining and significant. Though, the degree to which you'd have to change basic class features to make a fighter 'sub-class' into a warlord would be tantamount to creating a new class, anyway.</p><p></p><p>Your example of how a 'Mage' might have been designed to encompass both Wizard and Sorcerer is a good one. It might have been. The game could have taken a very different approach to class & sub-class, even something much closer to 2e's Class Group and Classes. If it had, more class concepts could have been folded in as sub-classes and fewer full classes might have been required. In such a hypothetical alternate 5e design philosophy, a BM sub-class of fighter could even have been a passable Bravura Warlord.</p><p></p><p>I'll go out on a limb and guess "neo-Vancian casting."At 1st level, sure. Beyond that, no. In 3.5 a caster might well expend more than one spell per round, both in terms of pre-casting, and by using Quicken Spell and/or Haste frequently. Combats tended to be very short, so a day might not have a lot more rounds than combats... </p><p></p><p>Yep. Cantrips raise the value of caster's non-casting rounds relative to just tossing darts in 1e or twanging crossbows in 3e, not to the level of non-casters at-wills, but closer than in classic D&D or 3e. To compensate, 5e would have to have given casters fewer slots (it gave them more) or made casting harder to complete or more dangerous (it made it easier & safer than ever) or substantially reduced the power of spells (some of them were reined in a little, but others were powered up, and still others comparatively 'nerfed'). </p><p></p><p>Yeah, the double-standard is alive and well. And, yes, the Warlord did challenge that double-standard, and would have to do so again in 5e. 5e's open, fluid, & DM-customizable enough, though, that it shouldn't be an issue.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6842961, member: 996"] The current 5e design paradigm doesn't leave a lot of room in sub-classes. They'll add to or re-jigger class features a little. In theory, sub-classes could have been a lot more defining and significant. Though, the degree to which you'd have to change basic class features to make a fighter 'sub-class' into a warlord would be tantamount to creating a new class, anyway. Your example of how a 'Mage' might have been designed to encompass both Wizard and Sorcerer is a good one. It might have been. The game could have taken a very different approach to class & sub-class, even something much closer to 2e's Class Group and Classes. If it had, more class concepts could have been folded in as sub-classes and fewer full classes might have been required. In such a hypothetical alternate 5e design philosophy, a BM sub-class of fighter could even have been a passable Bravura Warlord. I'll go out on a limb and guess "neo-Vancian casting."At 1st level, sure. Beyond that, no. In 3.5 a caster might well expend more than one spell per round, both in terms of pre-casting, and by using Quicken Spell and/or Haste frequently. Combats tended to be very short, so a day might not have a lot more rounds than combats... Yep. Cantrips raise the value of caster's non-casting rounds relative to just tossing darts in 1e or twanging crossbows in 3e, not to the level of non-casters at-wills, but closer than in classic D&D or 3e. To compensate, 5e would have to have given casters fewer slots (it gave them more) or made casting harder to complete or more dangerous (it made it easier & safer than ever) or substantially reduced the power of spells (some of them were reined in a little, but others were powered up, and still others comparatively 'nerfed'). Yeah, the double-standard is alive and well. And, yes, the Warlord did challenge that double-standard, and would have to do so again in 5e. 5e's open, fluid, & DM-customizable enough, though, that it shouldn't be an issue. [/QUOTE]
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