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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Twowolves" data-source="post: 1947272" data-attributes="member: 18093">You miss my point entirely. Obviously, for whatever in-game rationale, the Heightened spell will have a higher save DC. I'm saying that there should be some guidelines, such as a penalty for each missing sensory input, levied against such spells. An illusion of a Wall of Fire made with Silent Image has no heat, thus there should be a bonus to save against it, for example.Almost right.Neither HD nor CR necessitates Size. On the other hand, much larger creatures generally have higher hit dice than other unclassed creatures (because really, anything can have high HD if you advance them or give them class levels.) And when they have the benefit of larger size and more hit dice, (granting them higher BAB, saves, skills, feats, etc) they'll have a higher CR.I'm not saying it's a coverall, but it is a cover. You will not have a 1st level illusionist fooling the town guard with the silent image of a sleeping colossal ancient red wyrm. Again, you miss what I'm getting at. There are plenty of very very nasty creatures out there that are not of tremendous size, so an illusion is not realistically limited in that way. A beholder is not so big that a 1st lvl Illusionist can't make one with a Silent Image spell, even if he can't make the "sleeping colossal ancient red wyrm", and I'd dare say the town guard would be scared suffiently by it. Ergo, it's not a limitation at all.What I'm trying to say is that there should be a guideline as to what, exactly, the upper limit should be on what an Illusionist can "realisticly" create. Personally, I'd base it on ranks in Knowledge/Arcana, something like nothing with more HD than you have ranks in the skill, but that's just off the top of my head. It's not like less dangerous creatures have less details to copy... my brother the illustrator talks about how much time it takes him to draw leaves on a tree. Leaves are neither large, nor have many hit points, nor will they scare people off, but they have just as much attention that can be paid to them as any fell beast from the pit. So it seems silly to me to limit the ferociousness of what a mage can illude to the images CR, or HD. What does make sense is to limit him on:His experience. No beholders unless you really actually do know about them. Meaning, generally, that only more powerful illusionist will be using them. But could not an apprentice of that mage do so as well in immitation?Again, I'd like to see some suggestions on how to handle the saves for illusions of differing complexity. As you point out, making an illusion of a tree, with all the leaves swaying in a light breeze, is probably harder than a rock. So why aren't the saves different for each? Making an illusion of a dwarven warrior in full plate inlaid in silver, swinging a flaming warhammer, with gems woven into his beard and a gold tooth monogrammed with his initials, should be MUCH harder to make than, say, a patch of immobile green slime, shouldn't it? And you yourself said that the difference in making an image of a beholder and a tree is experience, correct? How do you measure experience then? Caster Level? Ranks in Knowledge/Arcana? The Spell Focus/Illusion feat? You say that "only more powerful illusionists will be using" images of beholders, and all I'm saying is some sort of suggestion as to what "more powerful" means in game terms. In summary, I think that the following is needed for adjudicating illusions:1) a measure of the most powerful creature a caster can realisticly create, or;2) a number of creatures in any given caster's arsenal of effective critters3) guidelines for determining the effect on believability (and therefore saves) for illusions that are missing key sensory elementsand 4) perhaps guidelines for bonuses for illusions that are particularly believable, or perhaps some interface between skills such as Bluff and Intimidate and convincing illusions.Twowolves</blockquote>

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