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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Felix" data-source="post: 1948110" data-attributes="member: 3929">It does have a bonus to save when compared to Major Image! A +2 bonus. And if you should [Heighten] it to get rid of that weakness, then, well, you've bloody well gotten rid of that weakness, and shouldn't have that penalty anymore.No heat? Right. Easier to disbelieve, right? Yep. So use a better spell for your wall of fire if you want the DC to be higher.Tell me this... should a Silent Image of a plaster wall have the same bonus to save? Walls don't make sounds, give off extraordinary amounts of heat, nor do they smell too much. But if you're going to penalize the spell for lacking those things, then you'll be saying "that wall over there is too quiet to be real..."If, on the other hand, you're penalizing individual illusions (not penalize the wall, but rather penalize the illusion of a firewall) then you've discovered Circumstance Modifiers. Apply those as liberally as you like, but don't make them a feature of the spell itself. No kidding, which is why I said  If a 1st level illusionist can't manage the effect because of a size restriction he is limited by it. So realistically, truly, actually, and metaphysically if you like, the illusionist has been limited. But limits do not mean that people cannot find options within those limits, and smaller fiercer creatures are a viable option. Colossal red dragons are not.So let them be scared. Are you trying to say, "no, no little gnome illusionist, you can't be effective until you're at least 5th level." The guard will ring the alarm, summon archers, or do whatever it is guards do when freaked.Or If they are used to, or trained to expect, illusion magic, then they'll behave differently.Oh... so if it has a lot of HD, then it becomes complex and the illusionist can't do it. Is that you're saying? Tell me you're not, please; I wouldn't want to miss your point again. I'd handle them in the regular way. Roll a d20, add the Will save mod, and try to beat the set DC of 10+spell level+ability mod.If they have incontrovertable physical proof that that thing isn't real, they auto-save.If someone points out that it's an illusion, they get +4 to their next save.If it doesn't have sound, then golly, it must be really quiet!Because it's the same spell?Because it's a realistic looking rock?Because it's also a realistic looking tree?That sounds reasonable... Unless for some reason the illusionist doesn't have the requisite ranks in Knowledge(arcane) to match the HD of the patch of green slime, and yet his one rank allows him to create an image of that 1 HD dwarven warrior in ceremonial armor.Yeah. A tree I've seen. And were I an illusionist I could fashion a figment of one. But I've never seen a beholder, and so I would have a hard time coming up with an accurate image of a beholder.But what I could do is create an image of this creature that a floating eyeball with teeth from my own imagination. It might not look exactly like a beholder, but it does look like a hideous floating eyeball. Who says town guards would know the diff?To answer the question, yeah, I said "experience". As in, have you "experienced" this creature before... or "In My Humble Experience". Common sense...?If the character has seen the thing, he's seen it, and can produce an image of it. No "measuring" required my empiricist friend.Nice half-quote. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Left out the "generally" part did you. Clever.Follow me here:--More powerful mages have been around longer than 1st level mages, yeah?--More powerful mages got more powerful by doing stuff, yeah?--A beholder puts a hurting on mages, what with anti-magic and Fort-save stuff, right?So, if a mage is both alive and has faught with beholders, it seems reasonable to say that he's probably a higher level mage. So, generally, only more powerful illusionists will be using images of beholders, because they're the ones who have seen and survived encounters with beholders. They're the ones with more life experiences, and thus have more to draw on, barring imagination. I don't know that "what you have done so far in the campaign" is a game term, but there you go. That a good enough suggestion?Powerful does not mean detailed, as your 10HD green slime and 1HD dwarf have pointed out. Somewhere between "What have you seen" and "What can you imagine". I think those are good starting points.The next time my thief walks by Silenced, I'll be sure to let my DM know that I am lacking a crucial sensory output, and therefore the guards should consider me an illusion and leave me be.Wait... they don't even get a save until they interact with me, so they'd still have to move out to apprehend me... meaning they would do the same thing with a Silent Image... and their save would be easier because it's a weaker, lower level spell... facinating.But if you really want to penalize illusionists for "overreaching" with low-level spells, then use Circumstance Bonuses and call it a day. Don't screw with the spell when the mechanics for adjusting DC mods is already there.Something I like. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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