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ShortQuests -- individual adventure modules! An all-new collection of digest-sized D&D adventures designed to plug in to your game.

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Twowolves" data-source="post: 1948750" data-attributes="member: 18093">Pedantic, circular logic, non-sensical, arguementitive, pointless? See also: Felix.Welcome to the internet I guess. Quote:All other factors being equal, one image has sound and heat, the other doesn't, but the save DCs are exactly the same, and you see no problem with this picture??  All other factors are not equal.The Silent Image has been created by a wizard who spent a feat on [Heighten Spell] and has spent two spell levels to increase the power of the spell. And for his trouble he still can't make sound. So he's still limited in what he can do. That's punishment enough. And no, I don't see a problem with that picture, because in this case we have no circumstances to penalize or reward either spell!"Spent" two levels by Heightening it? Hardly. It's now the same exact level as the Major Image. But I see you are having trouble with the concept, so I'll simplify it for you. Instead of using a Heighten Spell to make the save DC's of the Silent Image and the Major Image the same, let's say the caster has Greater Spell Focus: Illusion. Save DC's are the same now, again. Happy? After all the POINT was that with the save DC's equal, the difference between the EFFECT of the spells is lack of heat and sound, and that should be reflected in the saves. But go ahead and spin off on some pointless tangential arguement about how many feats were taken, or whatever you like. Ignore the core of the issue: lack of sensory input SHOULD affect the save DC. quote:If you can't, as a DM, manage to grow beyond +2/-2 Circumstance Mods for dire circumstances, then I reccommend against adjudicating illusion spells. +2/-2 are neither hard and fast rules, nor are they the limit to which a DM can modify.If an illusion of one of my old college roomates shows up, and he's not burping, farting and smelling awfully, there will be more than a +2 circumstance bonus to my save. It might even be +4. Or +6. Or whatever. You the DM think circumstances warrant making it harder on the wizard? Then make it more than 2.I never said _I_ couldn't magnage to grow beyond any printed rule. Where did you pull that from? I said there should be guidelines, for those who don't have the same level of experience. But hey, thanks for summarizing Rule 0 for me again. quote:I don't really know how to interact with a wall too well. Besides touching it, I mean. Do you do it often? Because when you interact with that wall physically, you earn yourself incontrovertable physical proof that the wall is not real... and you automatically make your save. No. Interaction with an image grants you a saving throw. Touch the wall, get a save. If you fail, you think it's real. You do NOT automatically make your save. If your drunken, slovenly college chum stumbles clean through it to the other side, then you no longer have to make a save. If you are shoved through the image, you no longer need a save. If your wizard buddy says "It's an illusion", you still don't automatically make your save, you just get a new one at +4.quote:Silent Image lacks sound, smell, and thermals.Minor Image lacks less.Major Image lacks even less.Where do you get the idea that somewhere along the line the visual information relayed by the spell improves? After all, these spells say "As silent image, except", and nothing in the spell descriptions say "the visuals in this one are more vivid."Um.... I never did say the visual information improves. Where in the world do you get that idea from? I don't have to debate you, you could do quite nicely alone in your room. YOU are the very one saying that an Silent Image of a Wall of Fire is not as effective as a Major Image of the same Wall of Fire (because of a difference of 2 in save DC), even if the lack of sound or heat doesn't come into play. YOU are saying that if viewed from 500 yards, well beyond range of sound or heat or smell, that the image on the left is not as good as the one on the right, because one is a 1st lvl spell, and one is a 3rd level spell. Whatever.quote:"Have your character seen it?""Yes": Go to town. "No": Out of luck, or come up with your own creature.That seems like a binary operation... quatifiable enough?and..--If a powerful mage trains his underlings to create illusions of terrifying creatures.--A first level mage was a survivor of an attack by beholders on a wagon-train.--The 1st level illusionist name is Mowgli and grew up with beholders.So of course there are exceptions. But in any case, these exceptions are all rooted in what the character has experienced in his lifeOk, so the next illusionist in your game can claim he's seen anything he wants, and you'll let it pass? All you have to do is make up an outlandish backstory for your character, and presto, he's a better illusionist for it."Has your character seen it?""Yes, he's been to the circus and seen it all. And read lots of books with pretty pictures in them, so I can make those too."Sounds rather arbitrary to me.quote:Guideline: If you think it's too complex, circumstance penalty it.If you think it's very simple, circumstance bonus it.Will these do?Actually, no, they won't. Hence the reason for my post in the first place. Any moron can say "well, some good things, some bad things... umm... +2 to your save!". Even you can do it! It seems to be the extent of your logical process. Other people, such as beginning DMs running a game for a more experienced player, might need more guidance than just that. Some rules to help adjudicate illusions would be nice, so it's not just an arbitrary judgement call, which could vary wildly from one DM to the next. Quote:3) Missing stimuli: Suggestions for scaled save modifiers for each missing stimulus, and examples (using circumstance modifiers as a basis).  I suggest that as the circumstances become more extreme, you use bigger modifiers.Wow! You love to call me out for not bowing down to the word "generally" when you use it to ignore a pertinant point, but you are free to ignore my use of the word "examples" in the quote above! Yay, double standards!Quote:Wow, way to be intenionally obtuse! Nice work!  Thank you! Took me two years and a thousand posts around here to develop it! You seem to be coming along very quickly, though... bravo.Oh, and now a backhanded implication that because your post count is bigger than mine, you must be right! Two whole years, eh? Wow, you must have some nice, first printing copies of the Player's Option books! quote: I know this is the Rules Forum, but I didn't see the sign saying "check your imagination at the hyperlink". Oh, riiiight, this is the rules forum. I had almost forgotten, what with your advice that rules don't need clarification, just make it up as you go along, and don't forget your +2 circumstance modifiers! Coming soon to a campaign near you, a 1st level illusionist named Mowgli, who grew up with beholders! Yay!</blockquote>

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