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<blockquote data-quote="Pedantic" data-source="post: 9137664" data-attributes="member: 6690965">I think the problem is fundamentally intractable in the current state, and comes down to picking which norm you want to violate. Either you're giving mundane characters a mechanic that will violate some player's definitional understanding of what mundane entails (usually limited use abilities, mind affecting abilities, or effects that ignore the &quot;default&quot; system) or you're making a change to casting that's too hard on the sacred cows, or equally bad, results in worse gameplay patterns without any real improvement.I think a solution probably needs to be two-fold: rethink your proposed &quot;mundane&quot; archetypes to not trip over those limitations, and specialize your spellcasters. Or to be more concise: write a bunch more classes to replace the existing few. Swordsman, Dragonknight, Primal Warrior: all of those give you hooks to hang mechanics on the fighter is simultaneously too broad and too limited to support. Similarly, Fire Mage, Necromancer, Forest Witch provide significantly more clarity to the caster role, and let you draw more sensible lines around what techniques they can't access.There is no way out that ends with a Fighter and a Wizard.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Pedantic, post: 9137664, member: 6690965"] I think the problem is fundamentally intractable in the current state, and comes down to picking which norm you want to violate. Either you're giving mundane characters a mechanic that will violate some player's definitional understanding of what mundane entails (usually limited use abilities, mind affecting abilities, or effects that ignore the "default" system) or you're making a change to casting that's too hard on the sacred cows, or equally bad, results in worse gameplay patterns without any real improvement. I think a solution probably needs to be two-fold: rethink your proposed "mundane" archetypes to not trip over those limitations, and specialize your spellcasters. Or to be more concise: write a bunch more classes to replace the existing few. Swordsman, Dragonknight, Primal Warrior: all of those give you hooks to hang mechanics on the fighter is simultaneously too broad and too limited to support. Similarly, Fire Mage, Necromancer, Forest Witch provide significantly more clarity to the caster role, and let you draw more sensible lines around what techniques they can't access. There is no way out that ends with a Fighter and a Wizard. [/QUOTE]

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