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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Leontodon" data-source="post: 5215057" data-attributes="member: 57780">I have to strongly disagree here even though it goes a bit off-topic.  A kamikaze pilot may be selfless but how is he evil? Kamikaze pilots mostly did what they did having the pictures of firebombed Tôkyô or other Japanese cities in mind. They did what they did to protect their loved ones and family using the only means the Japanese thought were still available to them in the face of the total material superiority of the US. IMO firebombing Tôkyô is much more of an evil deed than killing yourself in a desperate attempt to sink a warship.  A suicide bomber is not selfless in that he does what he does for religious gain. Most of the more high profile terrorists come from a well-off background and never had to suffer the grievances that they allegedly address by their terrorist acts. The instant reward is paradise. A SS-fanatic is also not selfless. Either (in the last days of the war) he is an indoctrinated child (see German Nobel Prize winner Günther Grass as an example) and therefore legally hardly responsible for his deeds (which mostly amounted to a quick and gruesome death by a soviet tank-rush) or in the case of the genocidal maniacs that formed the middle and higher tiers, they profited heavily from what they did both materially and in social prestige (as military officers). Many of the initial fanatical members had the background of a long-term jobless person. A Southern Soldier again may or may not be selfless yet it is hard to define him as evil. The overwhelming majority thought (as in every war) to protect their families and livelihoods. Few of the average soldiers fought for the Southern States slavery, since most of them probably did not even have slaves. Slavery is an upper class phenomenom. Most of these cases involve the mechanics of nationalism. If you want to know why people are willing to die for a country in a "selfless" fashion I recommend the classic "Imagined Communities" by Benedict Anderson which is stille the ground-breaking work in nationalism studies. The point I am trying to make is thata) selflessness can be seen as an indicator for being good.b) Real-world examples are of little use when arguing about heroic fantasy roleplay-games</blockquote>

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