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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5215340" data-attributes="member: 4937">Ok.  Sadly, I'm unable to formulate a rebuttle that isn't likely to violate the policies of EnWorld or at least derail the thread.  Suffice to say that I think you spend far too little time addressing the cause and ideology being defended and far too much time on the idea that all nationalism is the same.   Also, you seem to make the same sort of general error as the OP, arguing that if some benefit accrues (or is percieved to accrue) then its not selfless.  But we can always find some benefit accruing or being percieved as accrueing in any sort of selfless behavior.  You also seem to be of the delusion that I'm unaware of the nuance involved in my examples and need a history lesson on the subjects, but I really can't address that either.  I suspect that if you are accurately reflecting the nature of the work, I'll find much the same flaws in it. I disagree.  Even beyond the very slippery nature of the term, I don't strongly associate a selfless state with the capacity or indication of good, and more importantly I don't think that an indicator of a thing is the thing itself.I wouldn't go that far.  It's quite possible to imagine a world where the laws governing the world suggest a morality which is different than the morality suggested by the laws we suppose govern this one, but I wouldn't suggest that a real world understanding couldn't inform even that extreme case.</blockquote>

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