We fight monsters sometimes.

[Minigiant]

One thing that always bugged me is that D&D assumes you fight enemies as if they are all humaniod creatures of the small or medium size standing on the ground. Once your levels start exceeding the number of fingers on one of your hands, there's a good chance you will encounter something not like you. Eventually the anti-flying, anti-giant, anti-breath abilities and options come out but shouldn't they come in the first book?

I know If I were an experience adventurer, I wouldn't stand in front of a dragon with an axe. I'd jump on its back and ride it like a bull (then tie up it's wings and plant an explosive on it's back where it can't reach.).

 

[ExploderWizard]

This seems like a random observation. What kinds of comments/discussion are you looking for?

 

[Jack7]

I think what he's saying is you don't fight a monster (in the general sense) in the same way you'd fight a man.

Just like you wouldn't wrestle a grizzly bear in the same way you'd wrestle a man.

And he's absolutely right.
A bear don't fight like a man.
And neither would a dragon, if there were such things.

And any man with any sense at all wouldn't fight a bear, or a dragon, like he would if he were fighting a man. As a matter of fact if he's got any real sense at all he'd dig a deep pit, lure the bear in, and enfilade him with arrows til he stopped moving.

A lotta times that's just plain overlooked.

Monsters ain't men any more than men are bears.
But if a man goes into a fight with a bear thinking he's going into a fight with loudmouthed, lumbering Tom down the street then his lack of forethought ain't the bear's fault.

Know your enemy, and know you ain't him, and know he ain't interested in fighting your fight.

 

[timbannock]

Probably one of my few gripes with 4th editions obvious slant towards Melee weapon-using classes: the second you get into a fight with a flying creature, the Paladin, Fighter and Cleric (at least) are reduced to Basic Ranged Attacks or (if they've got any) ranged special items.

Lucky for me, I've got a house rule to help with that (stolen from the boards here, so it's not my original rule): Spending an Action Point allows you to use a Daily Power in a way that is thematically similar while not needing to be exactly RAW. I.e., a Fighter could use a Daily and spend an Action Point to make said Daily a Ranged Weapon attack.

I give out APs a little more often than the Milestone rules call for, so it's nice for the Players to be able to do this thing once or maybe twice in an encounter.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I think what's he saying is you don't fight a monster (in the general sense) in the same way you'd fight a man.

I get the concept of different methods for dealing with different types of critters I just don't get the " First book" and what its supposed to include reference. Are we talking about all editions of D&D here? One particular edition?

 

[Harr]

I think his point is that characters should get anti-flying, anti-giant etc stuff from first level.

Idono, I think I like characters to have to 'figure it out' at the lower levels. We had a fight with hippogriffs recently, level 5 party. Hippogriffs have a thing where they can swoop by you and rake you with their claws and keep flying while not taking Opportunity attacks, which put the melee fighters in a real tight spot (especially since we were playing with flat max damage back then!) but after a couple of wasted round they started readying their attacks for when a phoenix came adjacent to them and stuff like that, and in the end they made it.

It was a good fight that we talked about the day after, and I dont think it would have been the same if they had just had a power to shoot at flying things right off.

 

[timbannock]

Worth noting that many of the lower level monsters with flight have poor maneuverability, suffering a -4 to their attacks when they are aerial. This does force them to the ground if they want to make the most of their abilities.

 

[Jack7]

I get the concept of different methods for dealing with different types of critters I just don't get the " First book" and what its supposed to include reference. Are we talking about all editions of D&D here? One particular edition?

As for me EW I was just making a general observation about how a lot of fantasy games go about the idea of fighting monsters.

That essentially it's often viewed as just a stand-up, man-to-man fight with a fella named dragon, instead of against a totally different, alien kind of beastie altogether.

But I reckon each different version of the game does have its own peculiar style of approaching the problem. Or, not really approaching the problem.

I mean if there really were dragons, and they really were a danger, don't you think most men would want better weapons than swords, knives, and axes, and a better tactics than "let's gang up, hack at him awhile, and see how long it will take before we wear him down good."

As for me, if there really were dragons, I'd be inventing the crap out of new weapon types, trying all kind of new tactics, and I'd be doing my killing as efficiently and quickly, not to mention from as far away, as possible.

If I could poison one, trap one, magic one into a pink pony, or make em all kill each other at Eastertime then that wouldn't hurt my feelings none either.

Point is I reckon you wouldn't attack a walking, fire-belching, scale covered castle with a knife that has written on it, "+2 against all fire-breathing bad guys."

Let that guy soften him up with his knife if he wants to, I'm coming in with catapults throwing hot lead and thunderbombs.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I think his point is that characters should get anti-flying, anti-giant etc stuff from first level.

Well if that is the argument being made then what is specifically "anti giant and dragon" other than being high enough level to be a threat to them whatever the edition ( besides the handy potions of giant/dragon control )?

If dealing with flying creatures is the issue then a first level party will have some extra troubles to deal with in any edition. A DM that vastly overmatches a party with a nasty critter and puts them in unavoidable combats with such things is simply a killer DM. AD&D 1E had all the options and anti-monster tactics in the first books, that doesn't mean that they were available to 1st level characters.

 

[ExploderWizard]

As for me EW I was just making a general observation about how a lot of fantasy games go about the idea of fighting monsters.

That essentially it's often viewed as just a stand-up, man-to-man fight with a fella named dragon, instead of against a totally different, alien kind of beastie altogether.

But I reckon each different version of the game does have its own peculiar style of approaching the problem. Or, not really approaching the problem.

I mean if there really were dragons, and they really were a danger, don't you think most men would want better weapons than swords, knives, and axes, and a better tactics than "let's gang up, hack at him awhile, and see how long it will take before we wear him down good."

As for me, if there really were dragons, I'd be inventing the crap out of new weapon types, trying all kind of new tactics, and I'd be doing my killing as efficiently and quickly, not to mention from as far away, as possible.

If I could poison one, trap one, magic one into a pink pony, or make em all kill each other at Eastertime then that wouldn't hurt my feelings none either.

Point is I reckon you wouldn't attack a walking, fire-belching, scale covered castle with a knife that has written on it, "+2 against all fire-breathing bad guys."

Let that guy soften him up with his knife if he wants to, I'm coming in with catapults throwing hot lead and thunderbombs.

LOL I totally agree. Its all down to available time, resources and inventiveness.

When a game design starts assuming that sane people would willingly put themselves in close proximity to danger rather than logically handle the problem as efficiently as possible because standing beside the big lizard and getting BBQ'd while whacking away with a sword is more fun than trapping it and killing it from a distance, then things get silly.