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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6141155" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I don't think that these players are pathological. They have noted (i) that D&D has resource-gaming elements to it, but that (ii) ingame time is not, by default, a resource, and hence (iii) it costs them nothing to trade ingame time to maximise their access to the resources, like spells and hit points, that really do matter to action resolution.</p><p></p><p>If you look at a game like Burning Wheel, that tries to build resting time into the system, you notice a couple of things: first, ingame time <em>is</em> a resource, because instead of spending it healing you can spend in training; second, players have an incentive to engage challenges at less than full health because, due to the way the BW advancement system works (it cares about the actual degree of mechanical challenge you face, but doesn't care whether you win or lose at that challenge), it can be easier to get the experience you need to advance if you are wounded (and hence challenges are, by default, more difficult).</p><p></p><p>That's a game at the gritty end of the spectrum. Marvel Heroic RP, at the other end, still draws a distinction between Action Scenes and Transition scenes, and there are things you can do in one sort of scene and things you can do in another sort of scene (including different rules for recovery in each sort of scene).</p><p></p><p>I think it's bad game design simply to rely on players' aesthetic sensibility to give them a reason to treat ingame time as a meaningful resource if nothing in the mechanics makes it so.</p><p></p><p></p><p>What I see in both these cases is that the GM is making ingame time into a resource in a way which is not at all transparent to the players. Like two identical corridors, one to the left and the other to the right, I don't really see meaningful choice here. </p><p></p><p>Of course particular scenarios might be different - eg the PCs learn from an oracle that they are on a clock. But in the typical Gygaxian AD&D module there is no data that the player can gather via skillful play that will tell them how much time they have, and what the costs are in terms of loot foregone if they rest. Furthermore, the XP system makes quite a difference here: in Gygaxian AD&D, for instance, missing out on loot is a big deal XP-wise and extra reinforcement adversely affect the fight-to-XP ratio, whereas in 2nd ed AD&D missing out on loot isn't as big a deal, and extra combats due to reinforcements are a boost to XP rather than a drag upon XP.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I very much agree with Kinak here. Hit points are a fighter's main "daily" resource. Putting them on a different clock from the casters is a recipe for balance breakdown. It also increases the pressure on the cleric to be a healer, if spells come back more quickly than hit points and hence speed up the overall recovery process (in my experience this was certainly the default in classic D&D play).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6141155, member: 42582"] I don't think that these players are pathological. They have noted (i) that D&D has resource-gaming elements to it, but that (ii) ingame time is not, by default, a resource, and hence (iii) it costs them nothing to trade ingame time to maximise their access to the resources, like spells and hit points, that really do matter to action resolution. If you look at a game like Burning Wheel, that tries to build resting time into the system, you notice a couple of things: first, ingame time [I]is[/I] a resource, because instead of spending it healing you can spend in training; second, players have an incentive to engage challenges at less than full health because, due to the way the BW advancement system works (it cares about the actual degree of mechanical challenge you face, but doesn't care whether you win or lose at that challenge), it can be easier to get the experience you need to advance if you are wounded (and hence challenges are, by default, more difficult). That's a game at the gritty end of the spectrum. Marvel Heroic RP, at the other end, still draws a distinction between Action Scenes and Transition scenes, and there are things you can do in one sort of scene and things you can do in another sort of scene (including different rules for recovery in each sort of scene). I think it's bad game design simply to rely on players' aesthetic sensibility to give them a reason to treat ingame time as a meaningful resource if nothing in the mechanics makes it so. What I see in both these cases is that the GM is making ingame time into a resource in a way which is not at all transparent to the players. Like two identical corridors, one to the left and the other to the right, I don't really see meaningful choice here. Of course particular scenarios might be different - eg the PCs learn from an oracle that they are on a clock. But in the typical Gygaxian AD&D module there is no data that the player can gather via skillful play that will tell them how much time they have, and what the costs are in terms of loot foregone if they rest. Furthermore, the XP system makes quite a difference here: in Gygaxian AD&D, for instance, missing out on loot is a big deal XP-wise and extra reinforcement adversely affect the fight-to-XP ratio, whereas in 2nd ed AD&D missing out on loot isn't as big a deal, and extra combats due to reinforcements are a boost to XP rather than a drag upon XP. I very much agree with Kinak here. Hit points are a fighter's main "daily" resource. Putting them on a different clock from the casters is a recipe for balance breakdown. It also increases the pressure on the cleric to be a healer, if spells come back more quickly than hit points and hence speed up the overall recovery process (in my experience this was certainly the default in classic D&D play). [/QUOTE]
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