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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jolly Giant" data-source="post: 3366040" data-attributes="member: 5278">Heh. When I read the first post, where OP gripes about there being 64 saves, I thought I knew what he meant. Turned out I was wrong, though.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":o" title="Eek!    :o"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":o" />  But he got me thinking about something about the saves system that has frustrated me occasionally:I thought the OP was referring to the many different saves a creature can have special modifiers or even immunity against. I've never counted them, but I thought maybe the OP had and had arrived at 64. Now, 64 was a lot higher than I had expected, but there is an awful lot of save modifiers out there:Elves have +2 vs ench and are immune to sleep.Dwarves have +2 vs spells in general.Gnomes have +2 vs illusions.Etc, etc.There's a huge number of critters with special bonuses on certain saves (against poison, cold, death effects, disease, fear, traps, etc, etc), or that are immune against certain effects. And there's also PrCs that grant special bonuses and immunties.When DMing combats with multiple NPCs and creatures, remembering all their different saves bonuses and immunities can be difficult. This is especially true in high level campaigns. I know I've forgotten save bonuses that could have changed the outcome of more than one encounter. I've even seen players forget to factor in such bonuses when making saves for their own character.Still, I don't really mind this multitude of different save modifiers. I feel they add depth and flavor to the game, even if they can be a bit frustrating at times. Saying that there is only 3 different saves in 3.x certainly isn't telling the whole truth, though!Anyway, if this had been what the OP was referring to, as I first thought, then I could perhaps have seen his point. Turns out he was making an entirely different point, which I don't agree with at all. Please forgive me if I've been rambling!  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/nervous.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":heh:" title="Nervous Laugh    :heh:" data-shortname=":heh:" /></blockquote>

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