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<blockquote data-quote="Lackhand" data-source="post: 3366526" data-attributes="member: 36160">Little TangentAnother take on what the OP is saying -- mechanically, rather than his true argument -- is that&nbsp; rather than saves being more like skills, skills should be more like saves.Specifically, in a game where archetypes map 1-1 with classes, there should be no ranger who does not have at least a few ranks in spot and listen; no bard without a few ranks in perform, no wizard without spellcraft and know(arcana), and so forth.This would be pretty easy to represent, if skills and saves were the same: Give every class a &quot;skill progression&quot; along whatever its core competencies (so... unclean...) are; reduce the number of skill points given appropriately, and ta-dah, much character design is cheap-and-easy.The problem being that there has to be a new way of boosting these skill progressions; it might just be skill points on *top* of this system, which seems a little awkward, but doable; or perhaps use only feats, and change the rogue to grant feats from a bonus list much like the fighter (which, in fairness, is closer to non weapon proficiencies, so does have some pedigree... Though it also makes player choice much more atomic, which is hardly nice or fun; with a good DM, they just grant your character a rank or two in the skill to represent the time you've spent working on it, but that kind of freebie is very group-dependent).(there are probably other problems too!)Ramble over :-D</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lackhand, post: 3366526, member: 36160"] [b]Little Tangent[/b] Another take on what the OP is saying -- mechanically, rather than his true argument -- is that rather than saves being more like skills, skills should be more like saves. Specifically, in a game where archetypes map 1-1 with classes, there should be no ranger who does not have at least a few ranks in spot and listen; no bard without a few ranks in perform, no wizard without spellcraft and know(arcana), and so forth. This would be pretty easy to represent, if skills and saves were the same: Give every class a "skill progression" along whatever its core competencies (so... unclean...) are; reduce the number of skill points given appropriately, and ta-dah, much character design is cheap-and-easy. The problem being that there has to be a new way of boosting these skill progressions; it might just be skill points on *top* of this system, which seems a little awkward, but doable; or perhaps use only feats, and change the rogue to grant feats from a bonus list much like the fighter (which, in fairness, is closer to non weapon proficiencies, so does have some pedigree... Though it also makes player choice much more atomic, which is hardly nice or fun; with a good DM, they just grant your character a rank or two in the skill to represent the time you've spent working on it, but that kind of freebie is very group-dependent). (there are probably other problems too!) Ramble over :-D [/QUOTE]

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