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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5375160" data-attributes="member: 22779">I dunno Celebrim, there are a fair number of games which take death pretty much right off the table, yet, aren't simply pass the story stick style games either.3:16 Carnage Beyond the Stars, for example, allows players to dictate win or lose conditions a limited number of times.&nbsp; At one point you can simply dictate to the DM that you win the encounter.&nbsp; And you do.&nbsp; Granted, once you do that, you can't do it again, but, you do win.&nbsp; If you decide to use your weakness and lose the encounter, you are removed from play, but on your own terms.&nbsp; You are not dead, unless you choose to be.The player dictates that his character was incapacitated, medivac'd, captured, whatever, but, he's not dead.Sufficiently Advanced has the notion of Twists where the players can take in game negative effects in order to hit the &quot;I win&quot; button at any time.&nbsp; And they will win every time they do this.You mention about ignoring the simulation.&nbsp; Well, sim play isn't the only game in town.&nbsp; There are other play styles out there that some people do find fun.Me, I like to swing from both sides.&nbsp; Sometimes I want the real hard core sim style play and sometimes I want a more character driven game.As far as the player being a jerk and abusing it - fighting to the death because they know they cannot be killed, for example - well, I don't play with jerks.&nbsp; I play with people who understand the underlying concepts of the game and don't go out of their way to abuse the system.Doesn't matter what system I play in for that to be true.&nbsp; I don't play with hardcore munchkin/powergamers in sim games and I don't play with jerks in other games.Bottom line is, don't play with jerks.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5375160, member: 22779"] I dunno Celebrim, there are a fair number of games which take death pretty much right off the table, yet, aren't simply pass the story stick style games either. 3:16 Carnage Beyond the Stars, for example, allows players to dictate win or lose conditions a limited number of times. At one point you can simply dictate to the DM that you win the encounter. And you do. Granted, once you do that, you can't do it again, but, you do win. If you decide to use your weakness and lose the encounter, you are removed from play, but on your own terms. You are not dead, unless you choose to be. The player dictates that his character was incapacitated, medivac'd, captured, whatever, but, he's not dead. Sufficiently Advanced has the notion of Twists where the players can take in game negative effects in order to hit the "I win" button at any time. And they will win every time they do this. You mention about ignoring the simulation. Well, sim play isn't the only game in town. There are other play styles out there that some people do find fun. Me, I like to swing from both sides. Sometimes I want the real hard core sim style play and sometimes I want a more character driven game. As far as the player being a jerk and abusing it - fighting to the death because they know they cannot be killed, for example - well, I don't play with jerks. I play with people who understand the underlying concepts of the game and don't go out of their way to abuse the system. Doesn't matter what system I play in for that to be true. I don't play with hardcore munchkin/powergamers in sim games and I don't play with jerks in other games. Bottom line is, don't play with jerks. [/QUOTE]

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