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<blockquote data-quote="Nagol" data-source="post: 5378197" data-attributes="member: 23935">I play such games.&nbsp; The first that comes to mind is Teenagers from Outer Space where even injury is off the table.&nbsp; (Damage is rated in terms of &quot;bonk&quot;.&nbsp; Each point of bonk in excess of your total capacity causes you to lose a round of action.&nbsp; Then the character is fine.)However, in games where injury and death are appropriate genre considerations, removing them changes the game to the point where I find it is better to play a game such expectations are part of the rule set and a automatic understanding of the players.&nbsp; For me, a death could only be considered 'weak' if the character dies despite the game rules instead of because of them.Can a character be defeated short of death?&nbsp; Sure.&nbsp; Anytime the character doesn't achieve his goals -- exernally applied or internally set, the character suffers some form of defeat.I've had players that have revelled in angst and drama.&nbsp; Their children died?&nbsp; Great, more grist for the mill!&nbsp; Their beloved betrayed them?&nbsp; About time!&nbsp; Presenting character defeat to these players just gives the player more ways to engage the world on his preferred terms. I've had players that hate to engage in a drama-filled world and will flee to calmer waters at every opportunity.&nbsp; The king has been killed and a civil war is brewing?&nbsp; Pack up the valuables and move to the next country!&nbsp; The system worlds are politically unstable and we may lose our cargo?&nbsp; Jump to the next system!&nbsp; The barmaid is being assaulted?&nbsp; What was her name anyway?&nbsp; Nevermind, let's move on.&nbsp; Presenting character defeat to these players can often produce no result at all as those players simply disengage and/or focus on recovering from their loss and often do not consider effects to NPCs.In short, can a player lose short of character death or the equivalent?&nbsp; That depends entirely upon the player and what his goals are.&nbsp; All players, however, are defeated by forcible removal of their characters.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Nagol, post: 5378197, member: 23935"] I play such games. The first that comes to mind is [I]Teenagers from Outer Space[/I] where even injury is off the table. (Damage is rated in terms of "bonk". Each point of bonk in excess of your total capacity causes you to lose a round of action. Then the character is fine.) However, in games where injury and death are appropriate genre considerations, removing them changes the game to the point where I find it is better to play a game such expectations are part of the rule set and a automatic understanding of the players. For me, a death could only be considered 'weak' if the character dies despite the game rules instead of because of them. Can a character be defeated short of death? Sure. Anytime the character doesn't achieve his goals -- exernally applied or internally set, the character suffers some form of defeat. I've had players that have revelled in angst and drama. Their children died? Great, more grist for the mill! Their beloved betrayed them? About time! Presenting character defeat to these players just gives the player more ways to engage the world on his preferred terms. I've had players that hate to engage in a drama-filled world and will flee to calmer waters at every opportunity. The king has been killed and a civil war is brewing? Pack up the valuables and move to the next country! The system worlds are politically unstable and we may lose our cargo? Jump to the next system! The barmaid is being assaulted? What was her name anyway? Nevermind, let's move on. Presenting character defeat to these players can often produce no result at all as those players simply disengage and/or focus on recovering from their loss and often do not consider effects to NPCs. In short, can a player lose short of character death or the equivalent? That depends entirely upon the player and what his goals are. All players, however, are defeated by forcible removal of their characters. [/QUOTE]

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