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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Falling Icicle" data-source="post: 6325675" data-attributes="member: 17077">I think there are a few things to keep in mind when considering the saving throw issue.- There aren't really any "save or die" or "save or lose" effects anymore, so the consequences of failing a saving throw at higher levels are nowhere near as harsh as they were in past editions. Most things like finger of death that would cause instant death in the past now just deal damage (and often less damage than the fighter at that level can do). Things like hold person offer a save each turn to break free of the effect, petrification requires 1 minute of concentration, etc. There really aren't any spells in this edition where a single failed saving throw means that you lose.- Spellcasters get very few spells per day now compared to older editions, and only one each of 6th-9th level. That means that locking down monsters with powerful spells will be something that players can do far less often now.- Many debilitating effects, such as hold person, require casters to concentrate, limiting them to one such effect at a time. This prevents a single caster from locking down an entire group with repeated castings.- The largest difference in saving throws between someone who doesn't have proficiency and someone who does (assuming the same ability score) is 6 points - the same difference there was between good and poor saving throws at 20th level in 3rd edition.- Spellcasters can no longer go above 20 in their primary magic ability score, so they can't add more than +5 to their saving throw DCs that way. There may be magic items that allow people to exceed that limit, but magic items are much more rare than before and not something a player can ever assume they will have. In the playtest, the only thing I recall that added to Int, Wis or Cha were Ioun stones, and they only added +1, a far cry from the cloaks of charisma and headbands of intellect +6 of 3.x. High level casters in 3.x. could easily get over 30 in their magic ability scores. They can't do that anymore.- Saving throws are not the only way to protect yourself from harmful effects. You can have a poor saving throw and still protect yourself from fireballs with things like resistances, or protect yourself from things like hold person with freedom of movement, for example.</blockquote>

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