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<blockquote data-quote="Teataine" data-source="post: 6325957" data-attributes="member: 6678036">The mistake of 3rd edition was that the DC scaled way more than saves, and in the end the disparity was way larger.For example, a level 20 Fighter in 3E, while fighting a foe of an appropriate CR, might have to make a DC 32 save. If we don't include magic items, then if it's his strong save, he'll be rolling at something like +19. If it's his weak save, he'll be rolling at something like +8. In 5E, even the highest DCs don't seem to surpass 19. Again, ignoring magic items, when rolling your &quot;strong&quot; save, you're rolling with +11 or more and with your weak save you're rolling around +2. There's a marked difference there. Also consider we haven't seen all the rules yet, and there might be any number of ways of raising your save, getting new save proficiencies etc. 5E also gives out a lot more ability increases, so a character might &quot;max out&quot; their prefered scores early and then invest in secondary or weak scores/saves.As for the Rock Paper Scissors comparison...is apt, but I disagree with the conclusion. You can't be good at everything. This is a team game, that grew out of strategy games. If you have a specific weak save, then you need your teammates to back you up, disrupt the caster/effect, buff your save with spells or bard songs or inspiring words. If you want to beat your enemies, you need to find their weak spots, have intel. These are the basics of strategy. Even in the &quot;combat as sport&quot; paradigm, you still have the forward players, the defense line, the goalkeeper etc. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Teataine, post: 6325957, member: 6678036"] The mistake of 3rd edition was that the DC scaled way more than saves, and in the end the disparity was way larger. For example, a level 20 Fighter in 3E, while fighting a foe of an appropriate CR, might have to make a DC 32 save. If we don't include magic items, then if it's his strong save, he'll be rolling at something like +19. If it's his weak save, he'll be rolling at something like +8. In 5E, even the highest DCs don't seem to surpass 19. Again, ignoring magic items, when rolling your "strong" save, you're rolling with +11 or more and with your weak save you're rolling around +2. There's a marked difference there. Also consider we haven't seen all the rules yet, and there might be any number of ways of raising your save, getting new save proficiencies etc. 5E also gives out a lot more ability increases, so a character might "max out" their prefered scores early and then invest in secondary or weak scores/saves. As for the Rock Paper Scissors comparison...is apt, but I disagree with the conclusion. You can't be good at everything. This is a team game, that grew out of strategy games. If you have a specific weak save, then you need your teammates to back you up, disrupt the caster/effect, buff your save with spells or bard songs or inspiring words. If you want to beat your enemies, you need to find their weak spots, have intel. These are the basics of strategy. Even in the "combat as sport" paradigm, you still have the forward players, the defense line, the goalkeeper etc. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. [/QUOTE]

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