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<blockquote data-quote="Nagol" data-source="post: 6327955" data-attributes="member: 23935">Again, it depends how the designers envision saving throws working.&nbsp; There is no 'right' answer.&nbsp; 3e presented a massive shift in how saving throws worked for a reason. The simplest fix would be to drop modifier and proficiency from the DC.&nbsp; That would bring the saving throws more closely in line with the pre-3e style.Make the save DC 16 - ( victims proficiency + victim's modifier) (or in other words, saving throws have a base DC 16 and the victim adds proficiency and modifier).At 1st level, a high good save would be 16 - (2 + 3) = 11 and a typical poor save would need a 16.At 17th level, a high good save would be 16 - 11 = 5 and a typical poor save would be 15.This is closest to pre-3e style for saving throws.One complaint from that era is spell caster aptitude didn't impact saving throw difficulty.&nbsp; A secondary fix that takes the strength of magic into account would be adding the spell level rather than proficiency + modifier.&nbsp; At low levels, saving throws get 4 points easier.&nbsp; At high levels, that drops to 2. Coupled with the serious reduction in high-level slots, that may be sufficient to curb the problem.&nbsp; I'd probably consider increasing the base to 10 from 8 because people do the math easier.&nbsp; I would be tempted to use the spell level rather than the slot level to limit impressive DCs to high-level spells.A first level spell, a save requires 11 (10 +level 1 spell) and a first level target gets up to +5 for a good save and about +0 for a poor save.At 17th level , the save requirement goes to 19 for a 9th level spell.&nbsp; A good save has increased to +11 whereas a poor save has probably increased to +1 or so.&nbsp; The saving grace is the caster gets at most one a day.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Nagol, post: 6327955, member: 23935"] Again, it depends how the designers envision saving throws working. There is no 'right' answer. 3e presented a massive shift in how saving throws worked for a reason. The simplest fix would be to drop modifier and proficiency from the DC. That would bring the saving throws more closely in line with the pre-3e style. Make the save DC 16 - ( victims proficiency + victim's modifier) (or in other words, saving throws have a base DC 16 and the victim adds proficiency and modifier). At 1st level, a high good save would be 16 - (2 + 3) = 11 and a typical poor save would need a 16. At 17th level, a high good save would be 16 - 11 = 5 and a typical poor save would be 15. This is closest to pre-3e style for saving throws. One complaint from that era is spell caster aptitude didn't impact saving throw difficulty. A secondary fix that takes the strength of magic into account would be adding the spell level rather than proficiency + modifier. At low levels, saving throws get 4 points easier. At high levels, that drops to 2. Coupled with the serious reduction in high-level slots, that may be sufficient to curb the problem. I'd probably consider increasing the base to 10 from 8 because people do the math easier. I would be tempted to use the spell level rather than the slot level to limit impressive DCs to high-level spells. A first level spell, a save requires 11 (10 +level 1 spell) and a first level target gets up to +5 for a good save and about +0 for a poor save. At 17th level , the save requirement goes to 19 for a 9th level spell. A good save has increased to +11 whereas a poor save has probably increased to +1 or so. The saving grace is the caster gets at most one a day. [/QUOTE]

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