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<blockquote data-quote="Sadras" data-source="post: 6329106" data-attributes="member: 6688277">One has to wonder if all the opponents of 5e saving throw system in this thread complained vigorously when Madmordigan, Sorsha and Airk (all high-level fighters) as well has their entire army did not make their Constitution saves before being polymorphed into pigs by the evil witch-Queen Bavmorda in the movie Willow.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused&nbsp; &nbsp; :confused:"&nbsp; data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue&nbsp; &nbsp; :p"&nbsp; data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />That's a save or suck scene if I ever saw one.I personally do not have a problem with the incremental increase in DC for spells. I want magic to be terrifying and scary all the time and not have a common-place shrug it off attitude. Most of the BBEG are spell-using types anyways why would we want to make adventurers impervious to everything.&nbsp;&nbsp; With regards to Domination, it has an easy out in that the victim is allowed to make an additional save should he take damage. I can easily imagine an ally slapping him (the victim) across the face, &quot;waking&quot; him up from the mind effect. One could go even further, more along the lines of something @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=18" target="_blank">Ruin Explorer</a> mentioned up-thread if an ally (or loved one) takes damage it might allow for an additional save to be made - this then depends on the leniency of the DM. To make the distinction @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=18" target="_blank">Ruin Explorer</a> inferred an auto-success in that situation.As for Hold &amp; Otto's, the spell allows a saving throw every turn. Really it is not broken and the suck is more like a 'suck this round'.&nbsp; Anyway, to each their own.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sadras, post: 6329106, member: 6688277"] One has to wonder if all the opponents of 5e saving throw system in this thread complained vigorously when Madmordigan, Sorsha and Airk (all high-level fighters) as well has their [U]entire army[/U] did not make their Constitution saves before being polymorphed into pigs by the evil witch-Queen Bavmorda in the movie Willow.:confused::p That's a save or suck scene if I ever saw one. I personally do not have a problem with the incremental increase in DC for spells. I want magic to be terrifying and scary all the time and not have a common-place shrug it off attitude. Most of the BBEG are spell-using types anyways why would we want to make adventurers impervious to everything. With regards to D[B]omination,[/B] it has an easy out in that the victim is allowed to make an additional save should he take damage. I can easily imagine an ally slapping him (the victim) across the face, "waking" him up from the mind effect. One could go even further, more along the lines of something @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=18"]Ruin Explorer[/URL][/U][/B][/I] mentioned up-thread if an ally (or loved one) takes damage it might allow for an additional save to be made - this then depends on the leniency of the DM. To make the distinction @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=18"]Ruin Explorer[/URL][/U][/B][/I] inferred an auto-success in that situation. As for [B]Hold [/B]&[B] Otto's[/B], the spell allows a saving throw every turn. Really it is not broken and the suck is more like a 'suck this round'. Anyway, to each their own. [/QUOTE]

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