Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Weak Saving Throws
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6330367" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>I suspect that is true for most folks who have GMed a lot of different games and enjoy D&D but aren't entirely wedded to it. I can't speak for @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=11821" target="_blank">Obryn</a></u></strong></em> , @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=18" target="_blank">Ruin Explorer</a></u></strong></em> , and @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=23935" target="_blank">Nagol</a></u></strong></em> , but when it comes to evaluating a system, I'm looking for very specific features which will tell me what the system is trying to do and how well it does it. Amongst those things I'm looking for is how robust the mathematical framework is that underwrites the in-play outcomes when PC build components meet the resolution mechanics. That is the real zoomed-out, top-down view of it. Bottom line is that there are a lot of cogs in that machinery that have to play nice with one another if they're going to produce outcomes that I (the GM) can reliably predict (within a reasonable margin of error) when I'm building challenges for my players. Whats more, I want the genre tropes that I expect to manifest from those conflicts to come alive as a result of my players advocating for their PCs as hard as they can, me pushing back with adversity to the same degree, and the system supporting us both in the (genre-coherent) resolution of those conflicts (rather than working against us). If the system says dynamic, swashbuckling awesome (!) on the tin, that better naturally come out in play (without me shoehorning it).</p><p></p><p>Relevant to the above is "what does the math say about genre archetypes/conceits that the game promotes?" Let us say the math is tuned the way the designers have intended and we run 100 various combats (with all manner of variables involved so we get a good cross-section). If the Concentration mechanics + the Fighter's suite of abilities (eg Indomitable) + the saving throw system (eg a crap to average Will save at best) spits out a Fighter that is made chump (scared, foolish, or mental fortitude just plain easily subordinated) by NPC spellcasters/beguilers/fearing guys at a 50/50 clip, that promotes specific genre expectations. If the 50 % of the time that the Fighter survives the attack vs Will yields that the Wizard routinely escapes or turns the tables due to some uber-spellcasting contingency, that pushes genre expectations further down a specific path. Alternatively, if the Fighter can routinely survive that first SoS vs Will salvo (maybe 80 % of the time) and that pretty much always means that a can is going to be opened on the Wizard, that supports an entirely different genre expectation.</p><p></p><p>Beyond that, the homework I do is mostly about "does this system coherently produce the types of thematic conflict we're interested in engaging with, the relevant genre conceits we expect to naturally emerge as a product of play, and is it robust to the pace of play I push the action towards?"</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6330367, member: 6696971"] I suspect that is true for most folks who have GMed a lot of different games and enjoy D&D but aren't entirely wedded to it. I can't speak for @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=11821"]Obryn[/URL][/U][/B][/I] , @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=18"]Ruin Explorer[/URL][/U][/B][/I] , and @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=23935"]Nagol[/URL][/U][/B][/I] , but when it comes to evaluating a system, I'm looking for very specific features which will tell me what the system is trying to do and how well it does it. Amongst those things I'm looking for is how robust the mathematical framework is that underwrites the in-play outcomes when PC build components meet the resolution mechanics. That is the real zoomed-out, top-down view of it. Bottom line is that there are a lot of cogs in that machinery that have to play nice with one another if they're going to produce outcomes that I (the GM) can reliably predict (within a reasonable margin of error) when I'm building challenges for my players. Whats more, I want the genre tropes that I expect to manifest from those conflicts to come alive as a result of my players advocating for their PCs as hard as they can, me pushing back with adversity to the same degree, and the system supporting us both in the (genre-coherent) resolution of those conflicts (rather than working against us). If the system says dynamic, swashbuckling awesome (!) on the tin, that better naturally come out in play (without me shoehorning it). Relevant to the above is "what does the math say about genre archetypes/conceits that the game promotes?" Let us say the math is tuned the way the designers have intended and we run 100 various combats (with all manner of variables involved so we get a good cross-section). If the Concentration mechanics + the Fighter's suite of abilities (eg Indomitable) + the saving throw system (eg a crap to average Will save at best) spits out a Fighter that is made chump (scared, foolish, or mental fortitude just plain easily subordinated) by NPC spellcasters/beguilers/fearing guys at a 50/50 clip, that promotes specific genre expectations. If the 50 % of the time that the Fighter survives the attack vs Will yields that the Wizard routinely escapes or turns the tables due to some uber-spellcasting contingency, that pushes genre expectations further down a specific path. Alternatively, if the Fighter can routinely survive that first SoS vs Will salvo (maybe 80 % of the time) and that pretty much always means that a can is going to be opened on the Wizard, that supports an entirely different genre expectation. Beyond that, the homework I do is mostly about "does this system coherently produce the types of thematic conflict we're interested in engaging with, the relevant genre conceits we expect to naturally emerge as a product of play, and is it robust to the pace of play I push the action towards?" [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Weak Saving Throws
Top